Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[WhyCry]

I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million

It is worth it as they are the major pillar for our nuclear deterrence. The are fully capable for dropping our arms if in case the same is required (Hopefully thats never).

As for Pakistan, they just got their share of bounty for targeting terrorists. US is going to give them thrift store stuff as long they are in and get a route to Afghanistan.

 

[AugenBlick]

Not only that but the Mirage 2000 UPG has seen a considerable ecosystem established in India to cater for it almost all of which will/can be leveraged for the Rafale in Indian service. In fact, this is a HUGE bonus that no one seems to give much attention to. Any other OEM (SAAB, Boeing, LM etc) would have to set up entirely new supply chains and build partnerships entirely from scratch but Dassualt has already got an extensive presence in this sector and this will only lead to massive cost and efficiency savings when the Rafales come to India. @PARIKRAMA

All that is true but most importantly Rafael leaves strategic room for LCA (all variants) and AMCA ... projects that will take our industry to the next level. I say Induct LCA 1A as much as you can and continue to iterate it make MK2 MK3 etc etc whatever. Rafael gives us breather to perfect our planes and allows us to get our hands dirty. This is totally worth the €8.8bil.
PS: I really did went to have pastries yesterday.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

was MMRCA Rafale downgraded? Then why would India buy a plane which is now downgraded and perhaps fall below the standard of MMRCA qualification?

In any case anything below that level of qualification will only result in opening a pandora's box in all front.. political and at military level..

i said clearly there will be anti rafale media publication.. you are going to see a lot as the D day comes near..

If AESA radar is not there then with what you are going to give mid course guidance to long range missiles where plan is there for Brahmos NG and Nirbhay ALCM in a later days.. without partial codes how can we locally do the mating and then testing? what about the Astra Mk2/Mk1? what about Meteor missile mid course guidance?

why will India buy a Rafale if its capability is now lowered then the other qualified bird of MMRCA?

Mirage deal had one component whch resulted in much higher costs. In the words of Prasun K Sengupta
"The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."

 

[AugenBlick]

Deal is still not signed still then all is speculation. The above news is from the hindu which is not newstrader although they r pro communist

Hindu is not a newstrader It only falls behind NDTV that too only because it is print.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

All that is true but most importantly Rafael leaves strategic room for LCA (all variants) and AMCA ... projects that will take our industry to the next level. I say Induct LCA 1A as much as you can and continue to iterate it make MK2 MK3 etc etc whatever. Rafael gives us breather to perfect our planes and allows us to get our hands dirty. This is totally worth the €8.8bil.
PS: I really did went to have pastries yesterday.

LCA i want them to reach 300 + quickly and for that the delivery schedule needs to be expedited... I hope HAL and whole ecosystem rises up and support it fully

 

[WhyCry]

@PARIKRAMA I know you broke the news for the deal here. Can you share the details for the actual deal, offsets and the changes that IAF had requested.

Thank you,
Dev

 

[AugenBlick]

LCA i want them to reach 300 + quickly and for that the delivery schedule needs to be expedited... I hope HAL and whole ecosystem rises up and support it fully

I agree .. I see three big companies TATA, REL , MAHINDRA... most probably REL will get Rafael. The rest can be tier1 vendor(aggregate) for the same.We can give one line of LCA to one of the two(maybe have a tender) so that HAL and it's efficiency can be benchmarked once and for all. They must improve for AMCA/FGFA down the line.

 

[AugenBlick]

Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal

1. The $9bil includes the setting up of two bases including the repair and overhaul facilities for the lifetime of this and future planes.

2. 50% of this will be invested back in our economy.

3. The made in India Planes will be cheaper and will not be saddled with the price of setting up of bases etc.

 

[AugenBlick]

Show me a source were 9 billion dollars include bases, maintenance ?

The bidding and evaluation was done on Life Cycle cost (LCC). If you would have followed the deal from the beginning you would have known this. The figures have always included life cycle cost and will include the new bases / base infra needed for the jets.

 

[AugenBlick]

What u mean by life cycle cost, so u r saying they will maintain rafale without charge us for 30-50 years

No.
Every aircraft is rated for number of flight hours before it needs overhaul. First minor maintenance than change of engine(life on engine is less than the plane) then structural checks and repairs etc. So the manufacturer gives a "lifetime" and we include the cost of all such changes in the lifetime of the plane. It is never completely without charge but most of the charges are already calculated and factored in. Exactly how much depends on the plane and more knowledgeable members will clarify.

 

[sathya]

was MMRCA Rafale downgraded? Then why would India buy a plane which is now downgraded and perhaps fall below the standard of MMRCA qualification?

In any case anything below that level of qualification will only result in opening a pandora's box in all front.. political and at military level..

i said clearly there will be anti rafale media publication.. you are going to see a lot as the D day comes near..

If AESA radar is not there then with what you are going to give mid course guidance to long range missiles where plan is there for Brahmos NG and Nirbhay ALCM in a later days.. without partial codes how can we locally do the mating and then testing? what about the Astra Mk2/Mk1? what about Meteor missile mid course guidance?

why will India buy a Rafale if its capability is now lowered then the other qualified bird of MMRCA?

Mirage deal had one component whch resulted in much higher costs. In the words of Prasun K Sengupta
"The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."

Engine swapped in mirages ?
I never heard about it.. I don't think so too..

I was hoping after rafale deal is done, we ll have M88 in mirages ..

I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million

Pakistan already have infrastructure , logistics , training , spares, bases etc for F16
8 brand new F16 cost is only flyaway unit cost for them.

If they buy a new type of aircraft like J10, then cost will be more.( if life cycle cost is declared instead of flyaway unit cost )

the deal price break up

price break up approx

2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn

The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn

Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.

after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena

++
some more comments

base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..

Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...

modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.


posted in the sticky..

There you go @valluvan

I searched this parikrama post for you..
Read it well..

And read+_ 2 pages around that post for more details .. (Page206)

 

[Masterhunter]

Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal

The cost of rafale (flyaway) is about 83M dollar.. So cost of next 90 Planes will be 7.5 billion dollars...
One base can accommodate upto 3 sqn... So expect one more base for rafale minimum..and that will cost 1.2 billion dollars..
Weapons package will be extra depending on requirement but bare minimum will cost us about 2 billion...
So the total cost of next 90 will be 7.5+1.2+2= 10.7 billion dollars... To have them combat effective...
As they will be made in India so no offsets perse...
For TOT (which we want) we may some amount that will depend on what is requirement.

Lastly, if you don't know anything...... Plz stop making fool of yourself and stop saying same statement again and again...
Thank you..

What u mean by life cycle cost, so u r saying they will maintain rafale without charge us for 30-50 years

The deal also include availability of 90% so for that extra spares are also included in this deal...
Check parikrama post in previous pages... Especially page 193/194 I think

 

[SR-91]

I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million

America is subsidizing it for Pakistan. American Tax payers money at work.

Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal

You don't cough up , let's just go by your figure, 33 billion in one go. Remember the money is just for jets only. It will create a new infrastructure, tools, spares, training etc etc. The money will be given over a period of 30 years. So yes we can afford this deal and LCA and FGFA at the same time. Benefits will outweigh costs by miles.

 

[zebra7]

I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million

Here is the answer, With the Mirrage 2000 H upgradation, India opted for the Deep Upgradation, which included the Replacement of the Engine also and 499 MICA BVR, that's why the upgradation was so high. Pakistan is getting 8 brand new F-16 Block 52 from USA, without BVR thru FMS Channel. Why Pakistan is so desperate for F-16 Bloc 52 :-

1. Facts :- F-16 Block 52 equipped with Targeting Pod is needed against the war on terror, to locate and drop LGB with precission. --- Bull shit, because F-16 MLUed already have Sniper and JF-17 have WMD targetting Pod. In Reality the 40 F-16 A/B acquired in 80's from Peace Gate -1 and Peace Gate -2, of which 8 were lost due to iteration replacement due, since they have already completed their life Cycle, and the Block A/B whose airframe was designed for the A2A role, are subjected to the Ground attack role mostly are putting lot of strain on the Airframe. Even with the MLU, the avionics were upgraded, but not the engine, and airframe thus needs replacement soon.

2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.

 

[proud_indian]

Here is the answer, With the Mirrage 2000 H upgradation, India opted for the Deep Upgradation, which included the Replacement of the Engine also and 499 MICA BVR, that's why the upgradation was so high. Pakistan is getting 8 brand new F-16 Block 52 from USA, without BVR thru FMS Channel. Why Pakistan is so desperate for F-16 Bloc 52 :-

1. Facts :- F-16 Block 52 equipped with Targeting Pod is needed against the war on terror, to locate and drop LGB with precission. --- Bull shit, because F-16 MLUed already have Sniper and JF-17 have WMD targetting Pod. In Reality the 40 F-16 A/B acquired in 80's from Peace Gate -1 and Peace Gate -2, of which 8 were lost due to iteration replacement due, since they have already completed their life Cycle, and the Block A/B whose airframe was designed for the A2A role, are subjected to the Ground attack role mostly are putting lot of strain on the Airframe. Even with the MLU, the avionics were upgraded, but not the engine, and airframe thus needs replacement soon.

2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.

I might be wrong here but you are trying to wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.