Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Stephen Cohen]

It all depends the ToT and skill-up gradation component in the deal.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...xceed-49-if-ceo-is-indian-114080701271_1.html

 

[dadeechi]

India Buys French Fighter Jets—With a Whopping Pricetag
Rafale fighters are not cheap. At all.

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By Kyle Mizokami
Apr 19, 2016

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India has agreed to buy a slew of advanced fighter jets from France. The deal, worth $8.8 billion, will provide India with 36 Rafale multi-role fighters for a staggering average cost of $244 million each.

The Dassault Rafale was conceived in the early 1980s to be one multi-role fighter that could replace six different fighter and attack aircraft. The plane is almost completely French, with fuselage, avionics, engines and weapons all made in that country. Rafales have flown in combat in Afghanistan, Libya, Mail and Iraq. France operates 140 Rafales including the Rafale M, a navy version of the fighter featuring strengthened landing gear and a tail hook for use on aircraft carriers.


Although relatively small compared to planes like the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-22 Raptor, Rafale packs a powerful punch. Twelve wing-mounted hard points can carry a combination of air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, sensors, and drop tanks. Despite the fact that the Rafale is now a 30-year-old design, upgrades such as the RBE2 AA active electronic scanning array (AESA) radar, Damocles targeting pod, Meteor air-to-air missiles, and SCALP cruise missiles have kept the design competitive with other so-called "4+ generation" fighters.


Still, $244 million per aircraft is a lot of money. Why does Rafale cost so much? Exchange rates almost certainly play a role. And in addition to the plane itself, there's also a need for support and maintenance equipment and munitions. Part of the problem with Rafale is that aside from Paveway laser-guided bombs, it uses mostly French weapons that are incompatible with the rest of India's stockpile.

India is only the third international customer for Rafale. While the fighter has been on the market for decades, Rafale's first overseas sale happened just recently when Qatar bought 24 planes and Egypt followed shortly thereafter. Rafale will be a strong candidate to replace Canada's aging F/A-18 Hornet fighters when those need to retire.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a20448/india-buys-french-fighters-rafale/

 

[Taygibay]

Quic remarks :

(this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)

I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines

Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program..

Great part to explain ToT value in practice. So they're not really new engines, not 9T.
They are the same engines found in French Rafales but the power output is favoured
over the engine life, fuel fraction and so on. The difference is in choice of parts or parts
materials and FADEC programming.
They are different enough though to allow for the special bits to be added in India. You
receive a half-dressed M-88 core and put in the parts only found in your version.
Some will complain of screwdriver ToT but in reality it requires skills aplenty. It also
mean that other power vs economic buyers could have their engines uprated in India.

It can be extended to 51 % in exceptional cases

It has to be allowed, even with an Indian CEO Certain ToT packages would not be legal or acceptable without it.

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

That's very interesting. An honest Indian who doesn't believe all to be rosy in Bharat
will be thrilled! MKI apart, Tejas not being too remarkable, that most of the ToT will go
to future projects is encouraging. What's done is done and eyes on the future!

Considering how much time so many spend dwelling on the past, it's a brand new era!

Good evening all, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

• Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

• An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. (this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. (This mean that it's already in manufacturing)

20 months?? That means very early in 2018 the first Rafale will touch down in India

India Buys French Fighter Jets—With a Whopping Pricetag
Rafale fighters are not cheap. At all.

And the Americans would have been so much cheaper, right? Once again, no effort given to present a nuanced view- as far as idiots are concerned 100% of this $8.8BN is going purely to buy 36 jets, there is absolutely nothing else of benefit coming along with them.

 

[dadeechi]

And the Americans would have been so much cheaper, right? Once again, no effort given to present a nuanced view- as far as idiots are concerned 100% of this $8.8BN is going purely to buy 36 jets, there is absolutely nothing else of benefit coming along with them.

one more here

https://defence.pk/threads/rafale-jets-vs-ghas-ki-roti.427489/

 

[anant_s]

There you go Sir..

Offset clarity there..

Technologies getting shared clear which i had said with Radar RBE2 AESA and Spectra

Armament is clear and meteor is there and so also scalp @Stephen Cohen

I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines

Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program.. Engine program is running close to 10 months.. so reasonable time for both planes and engines..


I said 300 rafales and 100+ in IN and now its clear IAF need is 10 sqd.. You will hear about IN part too soon..

customizations of the indian missiles are not fully ready and hence we will do it in India and do again the whole testing + certification.. i said NG version of missiles are not ready yet..


As i Said in other forum.. ppl can laugh and mock me.. but strangely i did not digress from what i came to know and put it out here knowing very well the backslash risk..

Anyway project execution is the key now..

MII should be closed by Dec 16 or max by Mar 17.. Then its a full big project for India..


@Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @zebra7 @cerberus @Ankit Kumar 002 @Stephen Cohen @Masterhunter @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002

Enjoy.. Things will be leaked like this and it will be out in open soon..

what no one will say officially is the help in NG SSBN and SSN program.. DCNS is soon coming for a project part for INS Vishal... France is getting a strategic role officially..

Expect some more goodies in coming times..


edited to add customization point

yesterday economic times carried out an article on reliance industries foray in defence sector and it mentioned with great confidence about Reliance being a beneficiary of offset clause from Rafale deal. I think there is a lot going on (undercurrent one might say) and there is a lot more to deal what meets the eye.
I'm very hopeful that after this 36 deal, real ballgame would begin with manufacturing lines created here in India for Rafale.
@Abingdonboy

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Quic remarks :

Great part to explain ToT value in practice. So they're not really new engines, not 9T.
They are the same engines found in French Rafales but the power output is favoured
over the engine life, fuel fraction and so on. The difference is in choice of parts or parts
materials and FADEC programming.
They are different enough though to allow for the special bits to be added in India. You
receive a half-dressed M-88 core and put in the parts only found in your version.
Some will complain of screwdriver ToT but in reality it requires skills aplenty. It also
mean that other power vs economic buyers could have their engines uprated in India.

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/15718-armée-de-lair-du-qatar/?do=findComment&comment=911674
http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/15718-armée-de-lair-du-qatar/?do=findComment&comment=919763

 

[BON PLAN]

1. UAE signed Rafale and Scorpean Submarine Deal

??? Never read such a news. It would be nice, but not inked so far.

"The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."

??? No P3 in the pipe. Maybe refurbished P2, but no P3. Or it's a very very new news.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...finalize-89-billion-deal-36-rafales/83221878/

The French Embassy source said, "Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale."

To execute the offsets, several French companies including Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics, the French Embassy source said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, the "state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has almost finalized the future defense R&D projects in which French defense companies will participate as technology partners," the MoD source added but refused to give details on the R&D projects.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Spectre @zebra7 @MilSpec

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SO ; DRDO is also getting a lot of technology transfers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? No P3 in the pipe. Maybe refurbished P2, but no P3. Or it's a very very new news.

Dear Sir

P3 is a reality ; It has been around for A while

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Engage_02.pdf

 

[BON PLAN]

Dear Sir

P3 is a reality ; It has been around for A while

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Engage_02.pdf

First time I read something about.

I apologize.

When will it be induced?

 

[MehrotraPrince]

This is reply to those who think that we barely can afford 36 rafales, and 126+ rafales is either pipe dream or will cost India 40-60 billion $........or even 400 billion $....according to some high IQ gentleman.

Their logic, since you people are buying 36 Rafales at around 7.7 billion euros which means 1 Rafale=8.87/36=246.39 million $...........what can I say...........use burnol or start using your brain.

Truth is 1 Rafale is close to 85 million $ and rest includes weapons, spare parts for 10 years, setting of two maintenance depots and most importantly transfer of few technologies.

36 Rafales = 36 X 85 =3.06 billion $
weapons per Rafale = 20-25 million $ = 36X20 or 36 X 25 = 720-900 million $
(we are getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles)
Two maintenance depots = 2 X 600 =1.2 billion $ minimum
so Total = 3.06 + .72 - .9 + 1.2 = around 5-5.16 billion $
Now 8.87-5.10= 3.77 billion $ (this includes spare parts for 10 years + technology transfer)
For those who are new, total lifetime maintenance for aircraft = 2-3 times cost of aircraft, for 40 years period, which means in case of rafale if we consider 2.5 as average then 10 year maintenance cost = 2.5 X 85 /4 = 53.12 million $.
Which means for 36 aircraft = 36 X 53.12 = 1.92 billion $, so we are paying 3.77 - 1.92 = 1.85 billion $ for technology transfer(not to forget 50% offsets).

Note: These are all rough estimates.

Now lets compare Su 30MKI with Rafales:
Su 30 MKI: 60 million $
Total Service life(airframe): 6000 hr
Overhaul(airframe): 1500 hr
Engine AL-31FP : 87.7 % made in India( by components)
Engine life : 1500 hr
Overhaul period: 500 hr

Rafale: 85 million $
Total service life(airframe) : 8000 hr
Overhaul(airframe): 2500+ hr
Engine M88:
Engine life: 4000 Hr
Overhaul Period: 2000 Hr

You can clearly see Rafale is more than 33 % better than Su 30 MKI while Su 30 MKI is 40 % cheaper, not to forget some critical technologies we are getting with Rafales.

Now decide can India afford Rafales or not...........we are already operating more than 220 Su 30 MKI so we can easly afford 200 Rafales for IAF.

 

[zebra7]

Can anybody explain me what is this ??

It's Not Broken, The Open Rotor Turbine Is Supposed to Look Like That

This is not a broken turboprop engine. It's a new radical new aircraft engine design by French engine manufacturer Snecma, one that will forgo the traditional bypass system and remove the engine ducting altogether while reducing fuel consumption, greenhouse gas emissions, and engine noise.

Modern aircraft engines rely nearly exclusively on turbofan technology, which allows a portion of its incoming air to bypass the engine's combustion chamber and generate additional thrust when expelled with hot, compressed exhaust gases. However, the prototype engine above completely does away with the ducting found on conventional engines, instead allowing the counter-rotating fans to spin in open air.

"An aircraft engine's efficiency and consumption depend on the amount of air the fans draw and eject at slow speeds," Snecma Research & Technology Director Pierre Guillaume said in a press statement. "With the open rotor, we will be able to considerably increase that drawn air flow because we won't have any ducting around the fans. And that will improve consumption and cut CO2 emissions." What's more, the current 1:5 scale prototype engine is already testing at 10 dB below the noise levels of conventional engines, about what CFM's LEAP engines currently produce.


The Snecma team expects to have a full-size prototype ready for bench testing by 2015 and plans to install it for flight testing on an A380 by early 2019. Should the program continue without any major setbacks, Sneca hopes to begin commercial production of the open fan engines by 2030. Can't wait to see how these handle bird strikes. [Defense Update - Image: Sneca]

 

[Abingdonboy]

we are already operating more than 220 Su 30 MKI

FInal Su-30MKI figure in the IAF will be around 320 from what I hear.


+ great post brother but I doubt you'll convince those fools who cling to the notion that the Rafale is gold-plated and somehow the most unaffordable product ever created.

 

[Taygibay]

??? Never read such a news. It would be nice, but not inked so far.

It could be true, Bon Plan mec! At his Results 2016, Trappier's account of the deliveries
for this year and the next showed an excessive trickle down. Then he said 2018 would be
.... the year of the Rafale.
Now add this to the independent article on the UAE spreading a delayed deal output :
Original last November :
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dubai-airshow-emirates-fighters-idUSKCN0T01AQ20151111
Revised version in March :
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15...ult_Rafale_Order_to_2017_or_2018#.Vxd5-2Nh2hc
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ats-arabes-unis-s-eloigne-en-2016-557745.html

The idea is that the deal already exists and is being spread both to allow
the 2000-9 "relocation" and to fit the changing line's schedule.
For the latter, that means waiting for the upscaling to be in effect and then
getting 3 batches over a few years at higher, compressed rates of acquisition.

In some places, things move before signing officially.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Quelle candeur! No disrespect at all for the engineer, mon bon monsieur ( /my good sir )
but I don't believe in zero-zero-zero upgrades. My religion forbids it!
Same cost, same lifetime, same use but better performances? Same Bu[[sh1t, you mean?
That never happens in the real customer world.

Now, I trust Safran the engine maker entirely ... but Safran the goods peddler? Not so much!

Availability, no problem but ISO-everything?

Allez, Great day and convo all, Tay.

 

[Taygibay]

Can anybody explain me what is this ??

In a nutshell, it's the future of transport aviation engines.
Gas savings and all that!

Small hurdle for fighter applications, you don't want to see
what happens to those blades tips at speeds over Mach ...
especially not if you're in the cockpit!!!

Good day to you, buddy, Tay.