Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

First priority is remaining DPP chapters.. Strategic partnership will take more time..

Unless that is out Rafale MII cant happen..

So its a step by step process..

36 flyaway should happen today.. if not today then next DAC

But once strategic partnership part in DPP2016 is out, within 3 months Rafale MII will be approved, unless again some new points of negotiations crop up..

 

[Abingdonboy]

First priority is remaining DPP chapters.. Strategic partnership will take more time..

Unless that is out Rafale MII cant happen..

So its a step by step process..

36 flyaway should happen today.. if not today then next DAC

But once strategic partnership part in DPP2016 is out, within 3 months Rafale MII will be approved, unless again some new points of negotiations crop up..

IMO, it's better to spend a little bit of extra time on the MII now and get the best (and clear) terms now instead of paying for it later (aka Scorpene/MTA/FGFA). That is exactly why the off the shelf deal for 36 is being pursued- to buy some breathing space (just a bit) and meet the "urgent" needs of the IAF now (hence why they are coming within 20 months).

 

[W@rwolf]

Do you really think the total lifetime cost of operating (including operating costs, maintenance and upgrades) the Rafale is lower than Su-30MKI?

I know we have already covered this topic before, but can't seem to find them.

BTW, Sajeev Jino being funny again.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sajee...Kcf-GgNiV2-G6HziM-FJk4AL-G9rzRp-Feavhc-FeatkB

 

[Abingdonboy]

Do you really think the total lifetime cost of operating (including operating costs, maintenance and upgrades) the Rafale is lower than Su-30MKI?

Yup and by a signifcant degree.

 

[AugenBlick]

Yup and by a signifcant degree.

I remember the figures
It was 11000$ for Rafael
and 18000$ for SU-30MKI
and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)

 

[W@rwolf]

Yup and by a signifcant degree.

I remember the figures
It was 11000$ for Rafael
and 18000$ for SU-30MKI
and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)

What about the cost of replacing the engines, MLUs, spares etc? Spares would be costlier for Rafales that the MKIs as the latter will be mostly made in India under the new agreement with Russia (hopefully starting 2017).

Also, what all comes under "operating costs"? Does it include regular maintenance costs, consumables, fuel, oil, training costs etc

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I remember the figures
It was 11000$ for Rafael
and 18000$ for SU-30MKI
and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)

I will try to find a document from French SENAT (a kind of French parliament) showing that total operating cost for one Rafale fly-hour is 10000 € and 8000 € for M2K. But @randomradio said me that in India it cost only $ 4000 for a M2K fly-hour.So I don't know how it will cost for the Rafale in India.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What about the cost of replacing the engines, MLUs, spares etc? Spares would be costlier for Rafales that the MKIs as the latter will be mostly made in India under the new agreement with Russia (hopefully starting 2017).

Also, what all comes under "operating costs"? Does it include regular maintenance costs, consumables, fuel, oil, training costs etc

The M88 is a more efficent engine than the AL-31 and has 30%+ longer life than the AL-31. Spares will be made in India for the Rafale too.

 

[randomradio]

The M88 is a more efficent engine than the AL-31 and has 30%+ longer life than the AL-31. Spares will be made in India for the Rafale too.

That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.

 

[W@rwolf]

That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.

I thought the 88-4E engine has the same thrust as the 88-2. The report says that we will get a 10T payload capacity rather than the 9.5T. Doesn't that mean we opted for the M-88-3 engine giving 90KN thrust? That would explain the additional costs for customization that include bigger intakes and other tests that needs to be done.

150 Million $per Rafale seems just about right.

This split up is far more reliable that the one we have in pdf.

85 Million is the fly-away cost of the jet according to French Senat. I'm not sure how he arrived at the 150 Million figure, it could be the acquisition costs that includes the weapon packages. But did you see the amount for the base? 100 Million for 2 bases? Really?

 

[Abingdonboy]

That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.

But will the IAF get the 4E? Either way, the M88 (of whatever variant) will have a FAR longer lifespan than the AL-31 despite costing roughly the same.

 

[randomradio]

I thought the 88-4E engine has the same thrust as the 88-2.

Yes.

The report says that we will get a 10T payload capacity rather than the 9.5T. Doesn't that mean we opted for the M-88-3 engine giving 90KN thrust?

About 8.5 tons. For a 9 tons thrust, we need to redesign the intake, that's unnecessary.

But will the IAF get the 4E? Either way, the M88 (of whatever variant) will have a FAR longer lifespan than the AL-31 despite costing roughly the same.

M88 should cost twice as much as the AL-31. But it's worth it.

IAF will not get the 4E, but a newer engine.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil sirs, could you please explain a little about how Rafales are operated from their home bases. I know that they won't require the cumbersome BRD process like Russian origin equipment and a lot of MRO activities can be undertaken at the SQN level itself. But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?

M88 should cost twice as much as the AL-31. But it's worth it.

IAF will not get the 4E, but a newer engine.

200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).

 

[randomradio]

200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).

M88 doesn't require overhaul. AL-31FP requires overhaul every 1000 hours, nozzle every 500 hours. But IAF is performing overhauls even before the stipulated 1000 hours due to problems which are being fixed only now.

 

[W@rwolf]

That might be the price the French govt. pays for the jet, it is certainly not going to be the price the India govt. pays for Rafale.

You're wrong there, the French had promised to give the Rafales with prices comparable to that given to the French Airforce. According to SENAT report : Rafale C costs $78 Million and Rafale B (trainer) costs $82 Million (extrapolating the figures fro 2014). The $85 Million seems to be a acceptable figure in that case.

" - aircraft costs would by and large have been the same as for the French Air Force "
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-confirms-order-for-air-forces-rafale-deal-with-france-1262447

"France is offering India 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition at the same price which it pays to French defence major Dassault Aviation to equip its own air force,"
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...o-Own-Air-Force/2015/05/07/article2802306.ece

If you feel 100 million $ is "too little" can you provide a list of equipments and how much will they cost ?

I'm not an expert here, but when you consider the infrastructure that has to be set up ( including hangars, weapons dump, fuel dump, maintenance equipment, training, test benches etc) $100 Million is not even close.