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Cousin marriages (we need to talk about this)

What do you think?

  • Don't do it full stop

  • It's fine so long as it doesn't become a generational habit


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aren't jewsih people from one of 12 tribes? then they are seriously interrelated to each other. they seem fine to me
@David7 @Solomon2 @dsr478 @Blue Marlin @haviZsultan
crones disease is a major problem within the Jewsih community possibly due to continually marryin within the same family for generations.

Sikhs do not marry their immediate cousins but have a strong tendency to marry within their cast such as Jatt.


I've heard the accusation and discredit assumptions by some in the wider circles of society that Pakistanis have a low IQ due to cousin marriages. This is a complete false statement. In Britian the reson for poor education attainment levels by certain sections within the British Pak community directly comes down to a lack of intervention by parents. In most cases the father will most likely be employed as a taxi driver or work in the catering/food industry whilst the mother will be a housewife. Both parents wil have a deep concern for their extended family in Pakistan and make regular visits. At times this can have an impact on engaging in any interest with their own children. Due to this absence of not engaging in their childs academic studies (speaking with teachers attendin parents meetings) the children grow older without any real guidance or interest and gain very poor attainment levels. This cycle continues with the next generation. This is why many British Pakistanis are not employed in top white collar managerial positions.
@dsr478
 
@haviZsultan @Zarvan
in Quran it is narrated that women can work... even suggest marriage proposal..
Hz Haroon AS was old and her daughters took sheeps for drinking, grazing etc so it is allowed.. ow who will attend women at airport, hospital, school etc etc
 
How are we Punjabis so different in this regard? In Jatt Sikh traditions, 2nd, 3rd cousins let alone first cousins are addressed as sister. Leave alone cousins, I can't even marry someone from the same Jatt tribe as my Mom, Dad, maternal and paternal grandmothers.

Is cousin marriage also prevalent in Pakistani Jatts? @save_ghenda

@Tea addict What about Haryana Jats?
Gotra system prohibits many of our communities from cousin Marriage..me being a rajput can't marry with a girl from my own gotra and its sub gotras...my mother's gotra and its subgotras, my maternal grandmother (nani) gotra and its sub gotras and also my grandmother's gotra and its subgotras..not to mention we usually dont Marry within the same area also..
Coming to jats of haryana,they too had the same customs before but they were the most affected community when it came to gender balance and their their gotras were very few compared to other communities..so few decades back khaps allowed to marry among maternal grandmothers gotras i think.
@CleanWell tge gender inequality has affected all the communities custom but it has affected the jats in our region the most...in neighboring shekhawati area of Rajasthan there are many brides from assam in jat families, who came here by their own will for marriage as they can have much better life here..they are from very poor families.. i have seen a completely Mongoloid looking guy with name " dharamveer jaat"
 
Hi guys.

So yeah. I know. That topic. A lot of people are very sensitive about it, and do not appreciate the terms associated with it, but we need to have this conversation. It concerns not just Pakistan, but many other countries within the region too such as Iran, India, Afghanistan and Bangladesh (it also concerns the Arabs too). Here's a map showing it's prevalence throughout the region:

I5dEUIn.png


Many of you out there such as @Horus believe that there is nothing wrong with marrying your cousin, others such as @abcxyz0000 vehemently condemn the practice (or at least that's what previous threads on the topic give the impression of). Gentlemen, we are here to reach a conclusion based on the facts we have readily available. I will present my case, and I encourage others to do the same within this thread. Now, onto the discussion.

I'm going to structure this by busting some common myths in depth, and then reaching my own conclusion to share with you, here I go:

1. Marrying your cousin is incest

Wrong, whilst different cultures might treat it as incest it is not actually incest. The definition if incest is "having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild". Having a relationship with your cousin does not fall into this category and genetically speaking they are nowhere near as genetically similar to you as other family members are as these statistics clearly demonstrate:

550px-Cousin_tree_(with_genetic_kinship).png


Heck, even these statistics are the median/upper boundaries. First cousins can often share only 7% of their genetic make up with you. So it's far from incest.

The line only gets blurred when you talk about inbreeding, as the definition for that is to "breed from closely related people or animals, especially over many generations". Some might consider cousins to be closely related, others not so much. Compared to marrying your other relatives, marrying your cousin is nowhere near as bad (especially when you get into third cousin territory). Also, the definition applies specific emphasis on the "over many generations" bit (more on that later). So even if you consider cousins as closely related, it's not really inbreeding unless done over many generations.

Also, please keep in mind that terms such as inbreeding and incest are often used as derogatory terms so even if you mean no offence, it will still make people upset or angry so please refrain from such language. That goes for all types of derogatory slurs in general.

2. Having children with your cousin produces horribly mutated beings

No. No it does not. The percentage risk of the child having any defect of any sort (including mild ones such as poor hearing) is roughly the same as that of a child produced by a 40 year old women. Are you going to tell me 40 year old women usually produce horribly mutated babies? No, because that's not the case. Don't believe me? Take a look at what the statistics say:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...s-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html

https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/02/people-stop-thinking-appropriate-cousins-marry/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Genetics

Even if you go by the argument of "an increase in risk is still an increase in risk", by that logic you should only marry people of completely different race for the most genetic diversity.

These sources do also bring up that infamous Pakistani Briton statistic, and explains it. In those cases, the cousins were mostly double cousins or cross/parallel cousins. In other words, these people had this practice going on for generations. So the risk for these guys would obviously be much higher, which is why they yielded many more disabilities. It's also important to take note that over 50% of Pakistani Britons are married to their cousins. The vast majority of them obviously do not produce children which are horribly disabled, as the British birth defect rate is at 2%:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...in-50-babies-has-a-birth-defect-research.html

So it's clear that even the ones who continue the practice over generations, they do not always produce horribly disabled children (but the risk is significantly higher).

However, there's one topic that's a bit more controversial. IQ. There are many statistics showing children whose parents are cousins have low IQ's, such as this one:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-i-q-a-lot/#.WIuUvFN97IU

But fear not, because most of these tests have yielded contradictory results and the conditions for the tests have not exactly been fair. For example, it's unknown as to whether or not the students are the product of many generations of cousin marriage, or it's just their parents who chose to do so. Given that cousin marriage is legal throughout most of the world (including Western countries such as the UK), I highly doubt it would honestly affect IQ's. The students who score lower also tend to come from less economically stable backgrounds, which can affect IQ:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Genetics_and_environment

Not to mention IQ's do not predict how successful you will become in life. You can have a high IQ and still fail school, it's your effort which really matters. I think it's also fair to mention that I have known many people whose parents are cousins and have perfectly fine (some even superior) IQ's. If IQ's were really affected by cousin marriage, then Pakistan should have the lowest IQ worldwide due to it having the highest rate of cousin marriage worldwide, but it doesn't even come close.

iq_by_country.png


Now, what about this statistic?

http://www.nairaland.com/1448664/muslim-countries-found-highest-rates

The above source clearly shows the countries with high rates of cousin marriage have high rates of birth defects. In fact, all these countries (with the exception of Benin) have high rates of cousin marriages. First of all, whilst high, Sudan (which tops the list) still has about 8% of it's population with birth defects. That's pretty high, but as with all the other negative statistics on cousin marriages, this one is because of people engaging in the activity for numerous generations. This is clearly evident because if it was purely based in every type of cousin marriage, Pakistan should come out on top for birth defects, but that's not the case (we aren't even in the top 10). Secondly, 8% is far from majority.

Conclusion:

Cousin marriage is fine so long as it is not done over numerous generations. What should be regarded as numerous is up for debate, not enough research has been done to conclude at which point the line should be drawn, but you should steer away from the practice if anyone in your recent family history has engaged in the act, and when I say recent I mean if anyone later than your great great great grandfather married their cousin, it's a no-no for you unless some compatibility tests prove otherwise (and they have to be from a reliable hospital). This has to be followed so we can ensure people are born healthy and without problems, whilst still being fair to cultural norms among certain people.

@Hassan Guy @Mugwop @Oscar @Luffy 500 @waz @Kaptaan @Zaki @Nilgiri @SirHatesALot @nair @Windjammer @war&peace @PAKISTANFOREVER @OrionHunter @LA se Karachi @Doordie @Clutch @Chauvinist @Moonlight @Devil Soul @Tipu7 @WebMaster

narialand is operated by purple COONservatives who have a superiority complex. I believe cousin marriages are close to incest. Interracial marriages on the other hand produces wonder.
 
Gotra system prohibits many of our communities from cousin Marriage..me being a rajput can't marry with a girl from my own gotra and its sub gotras...my mother's gotra and its subgotras, my maternal grandmother (nani) gotra and its sub gotras and also my grandmother's gotra and its subgotras..not to mention we usually dont Marry within the same area also..
Coming to jats of haryana,they too had the same customs before but they were the most affected community when it came to gender balance and their their gotras were very few compared to other communities..so few decades back khaps allowed to marry among maternal grandmothers gotras i think.
@CleanWell tge gender inequality has affected all the communities custom but it has affected the jats in our region the most...in neighboring shekhawati area of Rajasthan there are many brides from assam in jat families, who came here by their own will for marriage as they can have much better life here..they are from very poor families.. i have seen a completely Mongoloid looking guy with name " dharamveer jaat"
There have been cases where women from the east of India were kidnapped and married to men from western states of India. Also the gender imbalance in Punjab where there are more men then women due to abortions.
 
There have been cases where women from the east of India were kidnapped and married to men from western states of India. Also the gender imbalance in Punjab where there are more men then women due to abortions.
I haven't seen a single case of kidnapped..nor heard it from anyone..only heard itin news..only women i have seen seen have came from extremely poor backgrounds ..
I know a case where when the first case of a girl from Eastern india when she married a jat from north Rajasthan and she even bought her 2 younger sister with her and married one of them in rajasthan also because while she was starving in assam, here she has 3 cars on her door whenever she wants to go out
 
Are you sure Sikhs don't marry their cousins? One authentic Punjabi guy was saying that cousin marriage is prevalent in Sikh community.
]

They do in the bhapa Sikh community which are immigrants from Peshawar and nearby regions in Pakistan. Not in Jatt Sikhs as I mentioned in my OP.
 
]

They do in the bhapa Sikh community which are immigrants from Peshawar and nearby regions in Pakistan. Not in Jatt Sikhs as I mentioned in my OP.
I think you guys also don't marry with mother,grandmother and own tribe?
 
Wtf .. Do in planet earth have short of girls ...? That we have to marry our cousins ..:cuckoo:
 
My two cents on this - I think cousin marriages are bad. The research is pretty clear on this. The real problem is not one event (cousin marriage) but the repeated cycles. One photocopy might be okay but if you keep making copies of those copies slowly 'faults' start aggregating. Go to any special needs school and you will see Pakistani origin children dominate the percentages. When the fvck is the Pakistani community going to recognize this? I often see those school vans carrying special needs children in my city and sadly too often I see Pak faces staring out from the bus. Seriously?

Symmetry is indication of healthy stock. I just see too many Pak people with ears going north and south. Nostrils bulging on one side. Eyes out of wack. Crouching posture. Too short and podgy. Too tall and skinny. I see this more amongst Mirpuri Pakistani's who I think have made cousin marriages almost a religious undertaking.

Although on this score I have seen Indian Gujrati and Banglas who take this asymmetry to altogether another level. Sikhs do very well compared to rest of Indians. These of course are generalizations I am giving or what they call in maths the 'mode'.

And producing statistics that Pak population has higher IQ then India etc is not going to help. It is my belief that cousin marriages is more recent phenomenon. In history the region that was Pakistan was too unstable and was riven with instability which would have caused much whipping of the genetic pool.

@Mugwop I am intrigued how you look. African people have been blessed with the best body frame that nature can endow. There is functional beauty to it that no other people can match. There may or may not be a IQ compensatory loss but often the physical gain is staggering.
 
I believe cousin marriages are close to incest.

They aren't even close, the chance of defect for getting freaky with your cousin is the same in a 40ish year old women, where as getting freaky with your sibling or something like that carrry's 4 times as much risk, sometimes higher. It's not even close to incest, unless done over numerous generations.
 
They aren't even close, the chance of defect for getting freaky with your cousin is the same in a 40ish year old women, where as getting freaky with your sibling or something like that carrry's 4 times as much risk, sometimes higher. It's not even close to incest, unless done over numerous generations.
It is incest, no need to sugarcoat it.
 
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