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Countries not willing to talk about Kashmir because of India's influence: Former Pakistan diplomat

Sir, being the diplomat he is required to be, he has never said that exact statement you wish for, and you know it.

So you admit that no UN Sec-Gen ever said that !!

No UN Sec-Gen, or any responsible official, can say that the UN has no role to play in Kashmir after the signing of Simla agreement, as long as Kashmir remains on the agenda of the UN Security Council as an unresolved international dispute, and with the UN observers still present in India and Pakistan to observe ceasefire violations on the disputed border ... Indians of course are free to say (or believe in) whatever they want

However, he clearly has said that UN mediation over Kashmir can happen only if both India and Pakistan agree to it. Does that phrase remind you of anything?

As already stated, the UN's reluctance to mediate has nothing to do with the Simla Agreement. The UN made no serious effort to resolve this dispute after early 1950's. By late 1950's, the UN was urging Pakistan and India to settle this matter "out of UN" ... Later, the USSR used "the veto" multiple times to avoid discussion on Kashmir in the Security Council. Simla Agreement was signed in 1972 only. So its not Simla that has made the UN practically irrelevant. The U.N had already been virtually elbowed out of the Kashmir dispute by Russia. However, the Simla Agreement no doubt does give the UN a little bit of "face-saving" .... Nothing more
 
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LOL. Can other countries do any thing about Kashmir?
No other country can do any thing about Kashmir the best strategy is to make it so expensive for India to hold on to Kashmir that it drowns the whole country with it. It is very simple this is Pakistan's war and Pakistan will have to fight it.
Expensive for india ? lolz
In no time it will start casting aspersion on CPEC, you will have no time in getting to the terms to whom it is getting expensive for really.

Btw india isso huge we can continue to easily hold on to kashmir from our pocket and continue killing all the terrorists from outside as well from inside the border. Depending on it being expensive for india seems to be the last straw of desperation.
 
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In other words, the Indian interpretation of Simla Agreement is not accepted by the UN


In words of the former UNMOGIP chief, The Shimla agreement does not supersede the UNMOGIP mission
In other words India doesn't give an F to UNMOGIP
 
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Let me add spice to some people's UN arguments.

Antonio Guterres is the new UN secretary-general with tremendous goodwill.

'We have every reason to believe that he will be sensitive to Indian positions,'

Guterres has an Indian connection that is the icing on the cake. His wife is from Goa whose parents moved to Portugal when she was young. He and his family visits India occasionally for sentimental reasons.

India was the only non-member of the Security Council he visited as part of his campaign and he was warmly welcomed.

Pakistanis & their Gov.t may not be knowing this. If they see this post, they will start broadcasting this on their media tomorrow
 
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You should update yourself.

India is not a nation. It's a mob masquerading as a nation.

This has gotten really old now.

And it wasn't particularly witty or incisive to begin with.

Cheers, Doc

I wouldn't call them mullah. Mullahs are people who are 'supposed' to be guardians of Islamic laws (or Islam).

And don't thank Jinnah:D. Thank Zia.

Don't be offended bro. Most of us use mullas to designate Hafeez Saeed types.

Not the good religious guys who speak and teach of God and not hate.

Cheers, Doc
 
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Pakistan is under no obligation to unilaterally withdraw its troops from Kashmir. The demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir was to take place in a synchronized manner on both sides of the ceasefire line. It was India which refused to implement the process of demilitarization.

Thanks for the reply :-)

I'm not aware of India refusing to implement the process of demilitarization for the referendum to take place. A link will be appreciated.

BTW, I never said Pakistan has to unilaterally pull out the troops. I only asked why Pakistan isn't implementing the UN pre-conditions of pulling out the troops. Of course it has to be done by both but the difference is that Pakistan has to pull out everyone from disputed area (including those who were allowed to settle in there by you). On the other hand, India will reduce the troops to minimum to maintain the law and order.

India doesn't have to pull out entire troops from there.

  • In the first step, Pakistan was asked to use its "best endeavours" to secure the withdrawal of all tribesmen and Pakistani nationals, putting an end to the fighting in the state.
  • In the second step, India was asked to "progressively reduce" its forces to the minimum level required for keeping law and order. It laid down principles that India should follow in administering law and order in consultation with the Commission, using local personnel as far as possible.
Here's a link to UN website: http://www.un.org/en/sc/documents/resolutions/1948.shtml

That's the precondition which Pakistan never met. Why?

The proof of Indian refusal to demilitarize is to be found in the report of Sir Owen Dixon (an eminent Australian Jurist and United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan) to the Security Council, contained in Document S-1971, in which he concluded as follows:-

"In the end, I became convinced that India’s agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any form or to provisions governing the period of plebiscite of any such character, as would in my opinion, permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation and other forms of influence and abuse by which the freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperilled."(Para 52 of Document S/1971).

I'm not aware who that guy is and why does it even matter what he says. Why? Because the pre condition isn't met by Pakistan. Then why should we care what a foreigner has to say about us? How can you blame us for something which comes later in the second step when the first step isn't even met?

From 1949 to 1952 eleven proposals (for demilitarization) were made by the UN which were accepted by Pakistan but rejected by India. Pakistan was even prepared to pull out its troops in favor of the UN troops irrespective of the Indian reaction to such a proposal and told the UN that it made no conditions.
Please give me a link for this part, I'll read it and then comment on it. In the meantime, if may ask, what do you mean by "in favour of the UN troops?"

And you guys still have the audacity to blame Pakistan !!
We blame Pakistan because

1) Pakistan didn't complete the precondition for the Kashmir referendum to take place.
2) Pakistan allowed non Kashmiris to settle in the disputed area (please note India have NEVER done this).
3) Instead of respecting the UN resolution, Pakistan started supporting those who subscribe to violence in the valley and we consider it as an act of terrorism. Why? Because if you're serious about resolving this issue then why not follow the process which is already in place to solve it (UN resolution)? Why do something which is never AGREED UPON?

India have now switched to "Kashmir is India's inseparable part" because your actions displayed that you aren't serious to solve the problem. You didn't stick to what you agreed to. So why should we care, really? Blaming India for the current scenario is just being dishonest, Sir.
 
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Don't be offended bro. Most of us use mullas to designate Hafeez Saeed types.

Not the good religious guys who speak and teach of God and not hate.

Cheers, Doc
It's fine. Almost everyone uses it to denote extremist. Hafiz Saeed is not a mullah (not the same league) he is out right terrorist.

Cheers, Section Supervisor:D
 
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Feel free to go back to British rule.

It was the muslim league which did not have any "cause" in British rule, not me.

Kashmiris, given equal rights and even more, however have a "cause" now.
 
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It was the muslim league which did not have any "cause" in British rule, not me.

Kashmiris, given equal rights and even more, however have a "cause" now.

I will paste this again for the benefit of our resident RSS revisionists:

The Muslim League supported the British war effort while the largest and most influential political party existing in India at the time, the Indian National Congress, demanded independence before it would help Britain. London refused, and when Congress announced a "Quit India" campaign in August 1942, its leaders were imprisoned by the British for the duration.


So even when it came to fighting Nazis, you were on the wrong side of history. And the "cause" was Pakistan.
 
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Pakistan is under no obligation to unilaterally withdraw its troops from Kashmir. The demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir was to take place in a synchronized manner on both sides of the ceasefire line. It was India which refused to implement the process of demilitarization.

Can you post a link to support your claim,
Or its just brain fart

As far as I know, (and I guess some one posted link to UN document also)

Step 1 : Paks should remove all military / non Kashmiri Nationals
Step 2 : India will reduce military to a level sufficient to maintain law and order in entire Kashmir
Step 3 : Plebiscite

Its Pakistan who is running away from plebiscite
 
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Can you post a link to support your claim,
Or its just brain fart

As far as I know, (and I guess some one posted link to UN document also)

Step 1 : Paks should remove all military / non Kashmiri Nationals
Step 2 : India will reduce military to a level sufficient to maintain law and order in entire Kashmir
Step 3 : Plebiscite

Its Pakistan who is running away from plebiscite

No need to quote my posts without reading them first, brain-dead Indian
 
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So you admit that no UN Sec-Gen ever said that !!

No UN Sec-Gen, or any responsible official, can say that the UN has no role to play in Kashmir after the signing of Simla agreement, as long as Kashmir remains on the agenda of the UN Security Council as an unresolved international dispute, and with the UN observers still present in India and Pakistan to observe ceasefire violations on the disputed border ... Indians of course are free to say (or believe in) whatever they want



As already stated, the UN's reluctance to mediate has nothing to do with the Simla Agreement. The UN made no serious effort to resolve this dispute after early 1950's. By late 1950's, the UN was urging Pakistan and India to settle this matter "out of UN" ... Later, the USSR used "the veto" multiple times to avoid discussion on Kashmir in the Security Council. Simla Agreement was signed in 1972 only. So its not Simla that has made the UN practically irrelevant. The U.N had already been virtually elbowed out of the Kashmir dispute by Russia. However, the Simla Agreement no doubt does give the UN a little bit of "face-saving" .... Nothing more

Spin it as you might, the facts speak for themselves as I have stated them.

Just like UNMOGIP can only be undone by the UNSC, only the UNSC can make the declaration in the exact words that you wish for, if and when it chooses to do so. In the meantime, what the Sec-Gen says clearly shows the UN currently regards the issue to be bilateral, like it or not.

As I said before, I can only support the facts as they stand. I have nothing further to add here.
 
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Spin it as you might, the facts speak for themselves as I have stated them.

Just like UNMOGIP can only be undone by the UNSC, only the UNSC can make the declaration in the exact words that you wish for, if and when it chooses to do so. In the meantime, what the Sec-Gen says clearly shows the UN currently regards the issue to be bilateral, like it or not.

As I said before, I can only support the facts as they stand. I have nothing further to add here.

No point in going around in circles now.. You have failed to provide any statement by (any) UN Sec-Gen to prove your claim.

And as you yourself have pointed out that the UNSC has not passed any resolution declaring Kashmir a bilateral issue even 46 years after signing of the Simla Agreement, we have no reason to believe that the UN will do it now (or in future) ...

The only "fact" is that Kashmir still remains on the agenda of UNSC as an unresolved international dispute and the UN refuses to terminate UNMOGIP despite repeated Indian requests.

However, you of course are entitled to your opinions no matter how ill founded they are.

Regards
 
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