Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[SQ8]

you are replying to a deleted comment

Which I deleted for its useless to the discussion.. shall I practice that again?

 

[SQ8]

agree you did full justice to topic by posting both views ....
thanks for the video as well as the transcript and clarifications .

You must have had taken lot of efforts ...

But then what is your final view on the matter ...?

No I did not. Because Ive done these efforts way way before this topic.. and spent enough time reading opposing views to figure a middle picture which I can put on the back on my head.

I honestly believe that Cope India was a clear demonstration that the IAF has developed ingenious tactics on how to use its assets. tactics against Pakistan.. which will work well and no Pakistani should be in any illusion or delusion that the sort of spirited effort the PAF put up in 71( and 65 to a lesser extent) will be as effective as then. Technology and numbers will triumph. However, in such a conclusion there must be caution taken that a lot of the Cope India efforts were put in by a higher ratio of TACDE grads and experienced commanders.. overall force composition is a varying mixture of pilot experience, conditioning, morale and skill.


On Red Flag Mountain home experience.. I believe the IAF acquitted itself well.. however, the MKI was still a new platform for the IAF(afterall in cope India they used Su-30MK place-holders and that was just four years ago). The pilots were a bit too confident on TVC and paid for it as they were dealing with USAF instructors and pilots who had experience in dealing with a TVC equipped fighter. One interesting aspect is to see that whatever display videos of the MKI that are done BY THE IAF usually involve minimal or no TVC.. which gives a lot of indication that experienced pilots on MKI realize the extent of usefulness of TVC and instead focus on the superb aerodynamics of the fighter.

Hence, when the newer students come onto the MKI.. they tend to neglect the fine art of energy fighting which is the cornerstone of most air combat today. I would not be surprised if rookie Mig-29 or M2K pilots beat new MKI pilots because they use energy management rather than raw power to beat the other fellow.

But the comment that is most relevant.. out of the video.. was the one explaining this; That once the IAF pilots get their hands polished on the MKI... once the IAF as a force learns and refines tactics to use with the fighter.. it will be better than any legacy fighter flying today(F-16, F-15) and will be a very tough opponent for a force like the USAF(let alone the PAF or PLAAF).

 

[SQ8]

I read somewhere that americans always create adverse condition for themselves and let their allies win. Not sure about second part, but first one seems to be true

Red Flag exercises are played exactly like that. Making the red force stronger and better than the blue force. This has always been the idea behind the USAFs training doctrine.. train against a larger force and win using better tactics.

 

[Armstrong]

No I did not. Because Ive done these efforts way way before this topic.. and spent enough time reading opposing views to figure a middle picture which I can put on the back on my head.

I honestly believe that Cope India was a clear demonstration that the IAF has developed ingenious tactics on how to use its assets. tactics against Pakistan.. which will work well and no Pakistani should be in any illusion or delusion that the sort of spirited effort the PAF put up in 71( and 65 to a lesser extent) will be as effective as then. Technology and numbers will triumph. However, in such a conclusion there must be caution taken that a lot of the Cope India efforts were put in by a higher ratio of TACDE grads and experienced commanders.. overall force composition is a varying mixture of pilot experience, conditioning, morale and skill.


On Red Flag Mountain home experience.. I believe the IAF acquitted itself well.. however, the MKI was still a new platform for the IAF(afterall in cope India they used Su-30MK place-holders and that was just four years ago). The pilots were a bit too confident on TVC and paid for it as they were dealing with USAF instructors and pilots who had experience in dealing with a TVC equipped fighter. One interesting aspect is to see that whatever display videos of the MKI that are done BY THE IAF usually involve minimal or no TVC.. which gives a lot of indication that experienced pilots on MKI realize the extent of usefulness of TVC and instead focus on the superb aerodynamics of the fighter.

Hence, when the newer students come onto the MKI.. they tend to neglect the fine art of energy fighting which is the cornerstone of most air combat today. I would not be surprised if rookie Mig-29 or M2K pilots beat new MKI pilots because they use energy management rather than raw power to beat the other fellow.

But the comment that is most relevant.. out of the video.. was the one explaining this; That once the IAF pilots get their hands polished on the MKI... once the IAF as a force learns and refines tactics to use with the fighter.. it will be better than any legacy fighter flying today(F-16, F-15) and will be a very tough opponent for a force like the USAF(let alone the PAF or PLAAF).

How are we planning on faring against them ?

Judging by that Exercise we did with the Yanks where the Mirages flew low enough & approached the American Carrier well within firing range or so I've heard - We weren't all too lacking ingenuity either !

 

[sancho]

The pilots were a bit too confident on TVC and paid for it as they were dealing with USAF instructors and pilots who had experience in dealing with a TVC equipped fighter.

Based on? The reports about seperate dogfights against US fighters actually showed the opposite isn't it?

One interesting aspect is to see that whatever display videos of the MKI that are done BY THE IAF usually involve minimal or no TVC.. which gives a lot of indication that experienced pilots on MKI realize the extent of usefulness of TVC and instead focus on the superb aerodynamics of the fighter.

Aren't you forgetting something? MKI does not only have TVC like the F22, the Su 35BS or the Mig 35, but ALSO has canards! MKI's maneuverability is not dependent on TVC, but is another feature that adds to it, which makes the less use of TVC only hint to the combination of both features and not into a conclusion about the usefulness.[/quote]

 

[SQ8]

How are we planning on faring against them ?

Judging by that Exercise we did with the Yanks where the Mirages flew low enough & approached the American Carrier well within firing range or so I've heard - We weren't all too lacking ingenuity either !

No we dont. It all depends on tactics and counter tactics. However, the leverage of technology and numbers does greatly lead to reduced effectiveness of such tactics.
Now, what I am about to say will sound harsh to many Indian members.. but if they have the sense to read through they will come up with better responses than ones that will lead to trolling and me getting pissed off.

Till recently, the PAF had MORE experienced and better pilots than the IAF in terms of a force ratio. Which means the quality of experience that was going to squadrons and their further training was higher than that which was going into the mainstream IAF squadrons. By this I refer to the ratio of more skilled and conditioned pilots in squadrons.. as an example.. out of 18 pilots in a squadron the IAF would have 5 experienced ones as compared to the PAF having 7 or 8. Does this mean that the PAF has better training or otherwise that we judge it on. NO, what the IAF experienced in the last two decades was the less known result of a booming economy; a booming private airline industry. While there are good private flying schools in India, the finest flying training in India still comes within the IAF. The result was that within the late 90's and early 2000s a certain amount of IAF pilots ..and specifically those who had more than just patriotic ideals and a love for flying in mind.. resigned their commisions in the IAF to head for greener pastures.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pilot unrest in India's air force

Figures obtained by the BBC show that between 2002 and 2004, 263 pilots were allowed by the IAF authorities to seek premature retirement.

However, in 2005 only eight pilots were allowed to leave.

The BBC has seen classified documents that show that one of those given premature retirement managed to do so only after he obtained a letter from a member of parliament.


The IAF says it spends millions of rupees on each pilot's training
One of the pilots, with more than a decade of service with the IAF, said he was dismayed at not having been given permission to leave the force, and felt victimised....One officer with more than 15 years of service said: "Whether you are posted in a small or a big city, you are not given an accommodation of more than two small rooms.

Here what I am pointing out is NOT the IAF's facilities or pilots complaints.. but those years of experience that the IAF payed for and trained them for. That experience still exists, that conditioning .. those skills. These got lost to airlines. Now these skills are not just an investment from the IAF on that single officer.. but also to any squadron they are posted to, to any new trainees they interact with and may instruct. While the IAF is slowly going to rectify this by changing criteria of induction and offering incentives.. it has suffered a loss in investment. This is also one of the reasons the IAF avoided the PAF's idea of glitz with female pilots because it knew that our societies are similar in women's position.. and despite all the PR rhetoric.. a woman's place in subcontinent society is different. Once she gets married.. has a child.. the expectations of her family change.. and the investment that an airforce makes(usually in millions of rupees) goes down the drain.

Had a similar phenomenon not occurred within the PAF? of losing experienced pilots? Yes it has.. the co-pilot on the ill fated Airblue crash in 2010 was a topgun .. yet he opted for greener pastures because he saw little future in sustaining his family. However, due to the much smaller aviation industry(and smaller market) in Pakistan in contrast to India..the Pakistani pilots face tougher competition on these pastures.. and additionally.. the PAF has greater monetary incentives for officers(in terms of land holdings) than the IAF.

It is due to such factors, that the IAF currently has lesser skill on its hand than PAF on a relative force level. Eventually though, there will be a reduction on those leaving the IAF and the IAF itself will refine its induction process to ensure that its operational experience skill set and readiness in no longer compromised. When that does happen(and the time is NOT far), the IAF will be a very well balanced force in terms of its men and machines.

When that happens.. depite the induction of JF-17s and F-16s.. unless a conflict lasts less than ten days.. the PAF will eventually be made redundant by the IAF.. both by losses and by denial of places to land and takeoff. Its simple mathematics.. greater technology , numbers.. and a much more evenly matched manpower in terms of experience, conditioning and skill.. along with dithering morale on the Pakistani side.. will lead to a PAF(and eventually Pakistani) defeat.

 

[Hermione]

amazing . I don't know why such great news go un noticed. while Indian defense section is otherwise largely filled with non defense news ....

@Abingdonboy perhaps you didn't notice this news ?

They were told to not talk about it to prevent bad blood with the highly competitive Americans.

 

[Manindra]

People goes gaga over exercise but forget to acknowledge that Fighter didn't use their Radar, jamming equipment & other EW sensors. So, only it is a dogfight in which Mig-21 Bison can pitted against Flanker & Silent Eagle but in real war These single plane can butcher dozen Bisons. These exercises give hint of WVR tactics of other air forces to refine your own.

 

[madooxno9]

Well no one can come out winner with Mig-21

Imagine F-22 vs Mig21 and F-22 in flames

 

[SQ8]

Based on? The reports about seperate dogfights against US fighters actually showed the opposite isn't it?



Aren't you forgetting something? MKI does not only have TVC like the F22, the Su 35BS or the Mig 35, but ALSO has canards! MKI's manoeuvrability is not dependent on TVC, but is another feature that adds to it, which makes the less use of TVC only hint to the combination of both features and not into a conclusion about the usefulness.

[/quote]

What reports? the Pushpindar singh retort or the video?

And the last paragraph does not seem like the usual response you would give. The Su-33 also has canards.. so does the B-1(little tiny ones) ... Canards perform a specific function on the MKI.. a function that has been made redundant on the Su-35BM. Canards allow more stability at high alpha and act as control surfaces to augment the tailplane when needed.... it does not indicate automatically that it will be superior to a non canard fighter such as the F-22. The usefulness of the MKI's TVC is exactly what is questioned in the video..that the 3D TVC(not true 3d but rather a 2d system that allows 3d manuevers) creates more drag than a plain two dimensional TVC.

The testament(I assume) is already given that the 22 degrees per second achieved by the MKI(a mean feat for ANY fighter and perhaps better than most) on its control surfaces alone !! Any pilot who knows how to fly and fight in the machines will not need more than that. However, whenever that TVC kicks in.. he probably gets a lot more.. but at the cost of literally falling from the sky. For that.. as mentioned.. even a F-15 with its 16 degrees per second will achieve easy kills.

They were told to not talk about it to prevent bad blood with the highly competitive Americans.

What you talking about?? They talked about it so much that it eventually got redundant and boring. The whole of 2004-5 was all about Cope India.

 

[Hermione]

What you talking about?? They talked about it so much that it eventually got redundant and boring. The whole of 2004-5 was all about Cope India.

That was the initial phase when Indians were very excited with the results. That resulted in the Americans getting all nasty. Then the Indian officers stepped in and dismissed the Indian boys talks as locker room bravado and they were asked to tone it down.

 

[SQ8]

That was the initial phase when Indians were very excited with the results. That resulted in the Americans getting all nasty. Then the Indian officers stepped in and dismissed the Indian boys talks as locker room bravado and they were asked to tone it down.

When did the Americans get nasty? During the exercise??

 

[Armstrong]

The testament(I assume) is already given that the 22 degrees per second achieved by the MKI(a mean feat for ANY fighter and perhaps better than most) on its control surfaces alone !! Any pilot who knows how to fly and fight in the machines will not need more than that. However, whenever that TVC kicks in.. he probably gets a lot more.. but at the cost of literally falling from the sky. For that.. as mentioned.. even a F-15 with its 16 degrees per second will achieve easy kills.

So this 22 degrees per second that you talk about - what is it ?

And is more or less seconds took better ?

And how does the Jf-17, the F-7PG & the F-16s compare with that ?

 

[SQ8]

So this 22 degrees per second that you talk about - what is it ?

And is more or less seconds took better ?

And how does the Jf-17, the F-7PG & the F-16s compare with that ?

That is rate of turn.. in a circle. A circle is 360 degrees.. imagine the nose of the aircraft to be a point on the circle.. so the rate at which the nose of the aircraft moves in that circle is your rate of turn. Turn rates vary with altitude and airspeed.
The F-16 for e.g follows pretty much this graph.

 

[Hermione]

When did the Americans get nasty? During the exercise??

The back and forth rhetoric that followed the exercise.