Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[faithfulguy]

The competition must be very lame that IAF came out on top.

LOL.

If you read the article, it was rigged for IAF to win.

 

[nik22]

If you read the article, it was rigged for IAF to win.

Good Analysis Sir! you summed it up perfectly! People are just wasting time. I was waiting for you to come and share your thought.

Thank You!

 

[SQ8]

Not only, but more importantly this one:

That is an old link you reminded me of. However, it only paints one side of the picture at mountain home. Additionally, it does not seem to deny the videos claim .. that initially the regular operational guys went against the MKI .. after which the instructors did.

In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results.

What happened the rest of the days.. the MKIs were at mountain home for a while before they moved to Nellis.. Again, the reason I state this is.. while some of what is in the video is bravado.. not all of it is.. and especially does not hold candle to the career officer that is Col Fornoff.. this is a VERY qualified pilot who has been involved at all the right places in the USAF structure for excellence in air warfare.. even if not connected.. he would not state anything to(what was essentially supposed to be a close knit meeting with ex-servicemen who know about how the USAF fights and performs) that was overly fictional.

The IAF was at a disadvantage at red flag.. but none of this applies to the engagements at Mountain Home and that is what the main focus is. I remember in 2008 when the video first came out.. there were ex-US servicemen who defended Col Fornoff.. and(as I search for their posts) I remember they all critiqued his lack of technical accuracy.. but were supportive of his air combat statements. Again, these are all subjective.. just as the Rafale F-22 kill.. or other claims on which the USAF kept quiet.


The rest on about the TVC I agree with.. but when i say canards made redundant on the Su-35BM.. improvements in FBW and realization on manoeuvrability vs RCS made it redundant to have canards.. the earlier su-35M did have them.
As for the F-22.. considering the casual testimony that it has 28 degrees per second without TVC!!!.. it really doesnt need it.

 

[Reviewer21]

That is bias one sees from them from time to time.. but its a matter of national pride which draws more extreme reactions from Indians(including dying from heart attacks at Indian cricket matches).

Do You buy that? he's trolling here unnecessarily and you are agreed with it. Does the vice president of google even have time to watch videos and that also about air force?

 

[SQ8]

A 95 era against a 60s mirage... wasnt tht ingenuity at that time itself?





Im talkin abt IN harriers sir ji..

P.S:what is Khichra?

perhaps.. but the Mirage was a 80s era mirage with the Agave radar and exocet which was still considered a deadly missile.

and I've stated in the post about the source ...

Also.. Khichra

Do You buy that? he's trolling here unnecessarily and you are agreed with it. Does the vice president of google even have time to watch videos and that also about air force?

I dont buy anything.. I do state the nationalistic bias that is evident. From the responses during the time the video was published(including pathetic media trials and character assassinations) of col fornof..to pathetic language and ridiculing videos uploaded on youtube and other sites.

 

[rockstarIN]

Not only, but more importantly this one:




People often only refer to the video, although that was the most unreliable report of the exercise, from a clearly biased and uneducated source, so no point in discussing that again.




But why is it redundant on the Su 35? Because it was part of it's RCS reduction measures and since it still remain to be highly manuverable with it's flight performance and TVC. The Su 30 is the heavier twin seat varient and for that, canards and TVC are both features to increase maneuverability compared to it's sister versions like the MKK, or fighter designs that didn't had either of them (teen series for example).
We see even the same reason why there are reports about J10s superiority against Chinese Flanker versions, thanks to canard design over conventional fighter designs without enhenced features.

Here is also an interesting read of an EF pilot, that explains the advantages and disadvantages of TVC:




The Aviationist » “Raptor’s thrust vectoring not essential” Eurofighter pilot says in last chapter of the F-22 vs Typhoon saga

Actually usaf guys did expect much more exposure from iaf mki whereas the radar was just in training mode as well as inexperienced guys mkstly. Even the usaf guy himself saying that it will perform much better when Indians will fly to learn it fully.

 

[SQ8]

Take a look at this.. This is cheap and pathetic.. tells you the low grade mentality that is Shiv Aroor. Pathetic example of a human being.
Livefist: Profile of "that USAF Colonel"

 

[sancho]

That is an old link you reminded me of. However, it only paints one side of the picture at mountain home. Additionally, it does not seem to deny the videos claim .. that initially the regular operational guys went against the MKI .. after which the instructors did.

And the video is not one sided? At least it is far more reliable, because it was not based on many factually wrong claims. It came after the video and can't deny it, only deny some of the claims that were made. Anyway...

The IAF was at a disadvantage at red flag.. but none of this applies to the engagements at Mountain Home and that is what the main focus is.

That's where the NDTV report is still the most credible, or the article you posted and they show superiority for the MKI. Only because the US officer had to talk the MKI / IAF down, to admit later that it is better, doesn't mean the US fighters actually could keep up, it's just another way to say it, just as in the Rafale vs F22 case, where the French stated they achieved draws, while the F22 pilots stated they wasn't killed a single time. So at the end, the MKI was superior to the US teens and the Rafale surprised with it's performance against the F22.

 

[Reviewer21]

@Oscar Well so does the Pakistani people do, people and media in Pakistani are doing all that chest beating and stuff by comparing hatf with even Mangalyaan!!

 

[sancho]

Take a look at this.. This is cheap and pathetic.. tells you the low grade mentality that is Shiv Aroor. Pathetic example of a human being.
Livefist: Profile of "that USAF Colonel"

True, but I wasn't refering to him, just chose the report of Vishnu Som, on his site.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

perhaps.. but the Mirage was a 80s era mirage with the Agave radar and exocet which was still considered a deadly missile.

We are talking abt Mirage III & Vs.. not F1s or 2000s here sir ji...

 

[sancho]

Actually usaf guys did expect much more exposure from iaf mki whereas the radar was just in training mode as well as inexperienced guys mkstly. Even the usaf guy himself saying that it will perform much better when Indians will fly to learn it fully.

Yes, the same was reported from the French, since the US wanted them to use SPECTRA to get a better idea about it, which the French refused. Yes, for the younger pilots it must had been a great experience, even if difficult with the limitations, but the results even they achieved seemed to be very good and we can expect far more from experienced pilots in within the IAF tactical scenario.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar Well so does the Pakistani people do, people and media in Pakistani are doing all that chest beating and stuff by comparing hatf with even Mangalyaan!!

We are not talking about Pakistan are we.. the issue here was the Indian reaction to the video. Or can you not talk about a problem in India without justifying it first with Pakistan??

 

[Reviewer21]

Yup I went off topic deliberately and so did you by bringing cricket in between and so did that other guy I questioned you about and yes I very well, how we are. And we do tend to go overboard some times and so does everyone else in this world.

We are not talking about Pakistan are we.. the issue here was the Indian reaction to the video. Or can you not talk about a problem in India without justifying it first with Pakistan??

 

[SQ8]

Yup I went off topic deliberately and so did you by bringing cricket in between and so did that other guy I questioned you about and yes I very well, how we are. And we do tend to go overboard some times and so does everyone else in this world.

Nope, that cricket was still relevant to showing why the Indian response to the Red Flag video was so acerbic. To demonstrate nationalism.. Pakistani nationalism has little to do with giving examples on Indian nationalism. You dragged in Pakistan to try and deflect the critique on Indian nationalism.. EXACTLY what I was stating that many Indians do. You were being nationalistic and tried to defend your country by immediately diverting attention to Pakistan in order to alleviate your feelings of hurt on my comment. In other words, you are serving as an example to exactly what I said. Reactionary, not thought-out responses out of defensive anger.

This is exactly what Shiv Aroor did in his blog..