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Comparing India and Pakistan 2010

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Please stop being personal and deal with the subject with data and arguments. If you can't do that, it'll just amount to an admission of your own moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

And if you want to about absolute numbers rather than percentages, India's record looks much worse in almost every area..from poverty to illiteracy to sanitation.

In fact, even Bangladesh and sub-Saharan African nations look much better than India.

According to a joint study conducted by the World Health Organization and UNICEF, 665 million Indians, or nearly two-thirds of them defecate in the open.

Haq's Musings: Fixing Sanitation Crisis in India

Over 270 million adults, that is one out of every three illiterate adults in the world is an Indian, according to UNESCO.

One out of very two hungry persons in the world is an Indian, according to World Food Program.

Almost one out of two Indians lives below the poverty line of $1.25 per day.

Haq's Musings: India Tops in Illiteracy and Defense Spending

I won't go and explain the way Karan did however i would like to give you some food for thought...

NUmbers/Stats can be used both ways....To make someone look better and someone look worse...Just compare your post with karan's...don't you think numbers are giving two different sides of the picture???

Again as per your post it gives as inclination that Sub-Saharan African nations or Bangladesh are better place for people to live...Don't you honestly think this is a bit of overstatement???

Anyways i have seen such posts before however if you are honestly interested in finding you then do a simple check

- Look at population of India in 1990
- Percentage of People below poverty line in 1990
- Absolute numbers of people below poverty line in 1990

and then compare it with

- Population of India in 2009
- Percentage of people below poverty line in 2009
- Absolute numbers of people below poverty line in 2009

You will get an answer of if our record has improved drastically or have deteriorated...Please understand one basic difference between China and India...we are a democracy implying we cannot force one child policy on people...One child policy help immensely in controling poverty because it leaves states with less number of people to take care of...Let me give you an example with numbers(since you are so much interested)

Around 500 Million people were below poverty line in India during 1990's...Today there are around 300 million people. If you go by plane numbers you would say all india achieved is brought 200 million people above poverty line in 2 decades!!! However what you will miss here is the number of offsprings that these poor people would have added in these 2 decades....We add 20 million people every year..If i equally divide these people as per their poverty scale(which ideally would be wrong because poor people tend to prodice more childs) you will see that there was addition of atleast 200 million poors people to the number we were already dealing with...Obviously there must be some people which we would have crossed the poverty line in these 2 decades..So if we see in absolute terms you will see that

Out of 700 million people india did manage to bring 400 million people above the poverty line in 2 decades...Almost 30% of our population...In other words the number of people that we have already brought above poverty line is more than 2 times of your countries total population....Amazing isnt it???
 
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Or Indian railway don't have rail track.....:woot::woot::blah::blah:

I dont understand why some of my fellow countrymen are so keen on jumping on the troll wagon when some like Karan is putting in effort to compile data from several places to make his point. All this will do is dilute the thread and give an easy way out to the very posters you are trying to pull down by replying to smart *** oneliners with similar remarks.

It is much easier to come up with oneliners than put in some substance into the post. kindly refrain from posting if you have nothing constructive to add.
 
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I dont understand why some of my fellow countrymen are so keen on jumping on the troll wagon when some like Karan is putting in effort to compile data from several places to make his point. All this will do is dilute the thread and give an easy way out to the very posters you are trying to pull down by replying to smart *** oneliners with similar remarks.

It is much easier to come up with oneliners than put in some substance into the post. kindly refrain from posting if you have nothing constructive to add.

o ya what you want to prove to them,does it change the reality.They want to live in the fake world they have created for them self so let it be...
If they think they are better then every one especially India than who are we to correct them, let them enjoy their world.
And ya browsing Google and posting some link is smart then every ****** is smart.
and if you have any problem with me go and complain to mod.
 
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so sorry skeptic. Totally agree with u but the fact is mr.riaz never replies to the arguments. People like desiman and others have debunked him rm many times but the guy still starts new threads with reference to his own blog. If u go through those threads u will know. Apologies again. Jai hind
 
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Please stop being personal and deal with the subject with data and arguments. If you can't do that, it'll just amount to an admission of your own moral and intellectual bankruptcy.
And if you want to about absolute numbers rather than percentages, India's record looks much worse in almost every area..from poverty to illiteracy to sanitation.

In fact, even Bangladesh and sub-Saharan African nations look much better than India.

According to a joint study conducted by the World Health Organization and UNICEF, 665 million Indians, or nearly two-thirds of them defecate in the open.

Haq's Musings: Fixing Sanitation Crisis in India

Over 270 million adults, that is one out of every three illiterate adults in the world is an Indian, according to UNESCO.

One out of very two hungry persons in the world is an Indian, according to World Food Program.

Almost one out of two Indians lives below the poverty line of $1.25 per day.

Haq's Musings: India Tops in Illiteracy and Defense Spending

I wont be talking about moral bankruptcy if I were you. You repeat same points again and again, fail to answer even one question directed at you, you play with statistics and articles, post wrong information on your blog and on PDF, post inflammatory thread titles, engage in derogatory comments against a nation, open new threads when you cannot answer back anymore, post very insulting comments, Post false comparisons and engage in childish rhetoric. Morals isn’t something that you should talk about Mr.Haq.
 
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I dont understand why some of my fellow countrymen are so keen on jumping on the troll wagon when some like Karan is putting in effort to compile data from several places to make his point. All this will do is dilute the thread and give an easy way out to the very posters you are trying to pull down by replying to smart *** oneliners with similar remarks.

It is much easier to come up with oneliners than put in some substance into the post. kindly refrain from posting if you have nothing constructive to add.

I respect your view skeptic but have been on the other stupid threads this guy has opened. Karan and other members have continuously proved this guy wrong but he continues to post the same articles again and again. He will post false statistics and news just to somehow win the argument. And when all else fails he will open a new thread. Wasting time on research and posting on his thread is useless and he will simply post articles about toilets etc etc because his brain is clearly whitewashed. You can wake up a person who is sleeping but you cannot wake up a person who is pretending to sleep. My request would be to stop replying to this freak at all and let him continue to live in his dream world.
 
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I respect your view skeptic but have been on the other stupid threads this guy has opened. Karan and other members have continuously proved this guy wrong but he continues to post the same articles again and again. He will post false statistics and news just to somehow win the argument. And when all else fails he will open a new thread. Wasting time on research and posting on his thread is useless and he will simply post articles about toilets etc etc because his brain is clearly whitewashed. You can wake up a person who is sleeping but you cannot wake up a person who is pretending to sleep. My request would be to stop replying to this freak at all and let him continue to live in his dream world.
I Think I know DM, have been on the forum long enough. I agree you can choose to ignore him if you had enough of it. Several members including me do ignore him. My request was simply to not let them have an easy way out by replying to one-liners.

I ave been a member long enough to know there is entire range of characters from either side (rather all 4 countries), ignoring is a much better option than flaming or trolling although best method is to put in your facts and let the readers decide. I know you have done it yourself, but would you like it if instead of replying to your well researched post he got away with replying to a smart *** comment??

BTW enough of this discussion. To each his own. Mr. Haq can take stage from here by replying to Karan and Decking....
 
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Please stop being personal and deal with the subject with data and arguments. If you can't do that, it'll just amount to an admission of your own moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

And if you want to about absolute numbers rather than percentages, India's record looks much worse in almost every area..from poverty to illiteracy to sanitation.

In fact, even Bangladesh and sub-Saharan African nations look much better than India.

According to a joint study conducted by the World Health Organization and UNICEF, 665 million Indians, or nearly two-thirds of them defecate in the open.

Haq's Musings: Fixing Sanitation Crisis in India

Over 270 million adults, that is one out of every three illiterate adults in the world is an Indian, according to UNESCO.

One out of very two hungry persons in the world is an Indian, according to World Food Program.

Almost one out of two Indians lives below the poverty line of $1.25 per day.

Haq's Musings: India Tops in Illiteracy and Defense Spending


Mr. Riaz Haq,

I just went through your profile at Riaz Haq - Pakistan and was really impressed. I was with the impression that you are of our age. You are very senior to us and very accomplished whereas we have just started our careers. I should be thinking twice before picking up an argument with you hence, lest I disrespect you.

Anyway, IMO comparing India and Pakistan is like comparing Apples with Oranges. Each of the country has different circumstances, aspiration, objectives and opinions. Each of the country has different advantages and disadvantages. The world has already de-hyphenated India and Pakistan; hence we should do the same. Each of the country should be solving its problem through its own prism. This will lead to improving the situation of each of the counties. Looking into problems of others would certainly not solve our problems and instead increase the enmity
 
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I respect your view skeptic but have been on the other stupid threads this guy has opened. Karan and other members have continuously proved this guy wrong but he continues to post the same articles again and again. He will post false statistics and news just to somehow win the argument. And when all else fails he will open a new thread. Wasting time on research and posting on his thread is useless and he will simply post articles about toilets etc etc because his brain is clearly whitewashed. You can wake up a person who is sleeping but you cannot wake up a person who is pretending to sleep. My request would be to stop replying to this freak at all and let him continue to live in his dream world.

I absolutely understand your frustration and i myself felt it some times.. But look at it this way.. Everyone who comes and goes thru these threads can see as clear as day on what's happening. Its pretty obvious on who is trying to cherry pick and flame. Normally I would not continue to respond to such nonsense attempts to fool people (believe you me, I have enough of those at work), but here Riaz is attacking my country. No matter how futile and childish (from a 50+ man) those attempts are, I am duty bound to respond. And the way I respond will reflect on the country I am standing up for.. And really, every time Riaz leaves a thread and starts another, he is running away from facts and proving our point. Every time you refute him with facts and not flame, you win because he expects you to flame to the extent that the thread gets closed and so that no one can counter /correct his points made in that thread anymore...
 
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I absolutely understand your frustration and i myself felt it some times.. But look at it this way.. Everyone who comes and goes thru these threads can see as clear as day on what's happening. Its pretty obvious on who is trying to cherry pick and flame. Normally I would not continue to respond to such nonsense attempts to fool people (believe you me, I have enough of those at work), but here Riaz is attacking my country. No matter how futile and childish (from a 50+ man) those attempts are, I am duty bound to respond. And the way I respond will reflect on the country I am standing up for.. And really, every time Riaz leaves a thread and starts another, he is running away from facts and proving our point. Every time you refute him with facts and not flame, you win because he expects you to flame to the extent that the thread gets closed and so that no one can counter /correct his points made in that thread anymore...

I respect that too Karan, and if you have noticed on his other threads i have responded with detailed analysis with graphs and statistics from reliable sources. I have seen your replies also and i must say i am very impressed by the details you go into when you post. But if one was to read the replies Riaz Haq post to our questions, it obvious to see he does not even read them. My point on the whole issue is to not waste your time on this guy by researching too much. I understand you want to give off a good image of India and believe me I do to, but having worked in a very aggressive industry for quite long, it is very important to know who you can argue with. With all his so called experience i have yet to see a bit of maturity from Riaz Haq and that is quite saddening. You can only debate with a person who wants to engage in a debate and learn something from you too. I actually prefer these threads being closed because –
a) They are only meant to flame
b) The articles posted by Riaz Haq are not even close to true and he casually plays with statistics.
c) He does not want to listen to arguments
d) He will answer back with even more inflammatory arguments
e) There is no end to it also.

You must understand Karan that he will not give up and will not learn anything also. Me, you and many other members have posted sufficient material to debunk him and I think we all have better things to do that waste our time researching to debunk his next useless post. I suggest you move on to better threads and exercise your excellent posting there. Latoon ke bhooth baton se nehi mante :P

Jai Hind
 
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I respect that too Karan, and if you have noticed on his other threads i have responded with detailed analysis with graphs and statistics from reliable sources. I have seen your replies also and i must say i am very impressed by the details you go into when you post. But if one was to read the replies Riaz Haq post to our questions, it obvious to see he does not even read them. My point on the whole issue is to not waste your time on this guy by researching too much. I understand you want to give off a good image of India and believe me I do to, but having worked in a very aggressive industry for quite long, it is very important to know who you can argue with. With all his so called experience i have yet to see a bit of maturity from Riaz Haq and that is quite saddening. You can only debate with a person who wants to engage in a debate and learn something from you too. I actually prefer these threads being closed because –
a) They are only meant to flame
b) The articles posted by Riaz Haq are not even close to true and he casually plays with statistics.
c) He does not want to listen to arguments
d) He will answer back with even more inflammatory arguments
e) There is no end to it also.

You must understand Karan that he will not give up and will not learn anything also. Me, you and many other members have posted sufficient material to debunk him and I think we all have better things to do that waste our time researching to debunk his next useless post. I suggest you move on to better threads and exercise your excellent posting there. Latoon ke bhooth baton se nehi mante :P

Jai Hind

fair points and Yes, I have seen really fantastic posts from you.. The thing though is that my aim is not to argue with Riaz or to try and convince him. I am simply rebutting his claims for everyone who visits and reads those threads...May be its a waste of time, but hey, we are all here in our spare time.. aren't we??
 
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fair points and Yes, I have seen really fantastic posts from you.. The thing though is that my aim is not to argue with Riaz or to try and convince him. I am simply rebutting his claims for everyone who visits and reads those threads...May be its a waste of time, but hey, we are all here in our spare time.. aren't we??

lol im at work :P quite bored today at work so might as well be on PDF:P For sure, our aim being Indian's is to defend our motherland from anything. Its our duty and we must practice that with due care. Keep up the great work bro but be careful, this guy has a habit of pissing people off lol
 
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And just to give Mr.Haq a taste of desi style spanking, here you go lol -

 
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Poverty is part of India's story


I can see that my recent analysis of ‘India at 60′ has upset a few people. Too relentlessly gloomy apparently – even “senseless” according to “scullerz”. “Go and find some positives to write about,” seems to be the message.

India’s rural poor have been shamefully overlooked
I can think of several reasons why writing about India’s very real poverty causes such anger and offence, particularly among India’s middle classes.
The first is nationalism. India’s well-to-do are having a ball right now and don’t like to be reminded about the ground realities. They are rightly enjoying India’s new-found place in the world and don’t want to be reminded of “inconvenient truths”.
So bravo to Dr Singh, I say, for not letting them get away with it at his Independence Day speech which noted the “national shame” – strong words indeed – of India’s malnutrition rates.
The second is racism of a peculiarly inverted kind. “Even if it’s true that India is mired in poverty,” runs this argument, “it’s wrong that a foreigner, and particularly a Brit, should write these things. It’s just ‘India Bashing’ dressed up as liberal sympathy.”
Well, I can’t defend myself from being a foreigner – I am – but I believe if you read what I’ve written in toto these past four years, you’ll see that the allegation is pretty unfair.
However it is the third rationale against highlighting India’s poverty that is the most worrying and I encounter it from both wealthy Indians and foreigners alike. To this group India’s poverty is just plain boring, it’s ‘old hat’.
“Can’t you just shut up with your carping and celebrate,” runs this argument, “India has always had lots of poor people, but things are getting so much better. Why are you too mean-spirited and short-sighted to celebrate that fact?”
It is at this point that I start to get angry.
Two particularly pernicious views are embedded in this third attitude to India’s poverty.
The first is that India’s poor are an unalterable fact of life. I’m reminded of the government health official who once told me that “these people don’t need toilets”.
This is a nasty manifestation of the caste system which still prevails in India and says that people are irrevocably bound to their lot. It is their ‘karma’, their place in life.
Well, I’m here unapologetically to tell you that it’s not – or at least it shouldn’t be. If India’s poor had toilets and clean water less of their children would die unnecessarily. The UN estimates that currently 500,000 Indians a year die from lack of clean water, which puts the recent floods in perspective.
Allied to this view is the sense – and foreigners are the worst for this – that somehow India’s poor are “happy” in their lot. I’ve lost count of the number of foreign visitors to India who say blithely as they peer through windows of their luxury cars, “isn’t it amazing how happy the poor people look?”.
I must beg to differ. In my experience India’s poor are far from happy in their lot and to my mind it is patronising, complacent and offensive to suggest they are.
Of course wealth is relative. What makes an Indian villager happy is different from what makes a middle class Indian or westerner like me happy. A new car, a cappuccino at the coffee house, a decent salary rise are not on the average Indian villager’s wish-list.
And this is not to say that all of Indian village life is miserable. There are, as in all lives, days of happiness, days of sadness. But offer a poor Indian healthcare, education, land and a dignity and I suspect he’s unlikely to say, “You know what, I’m happy as I am. You can keep your food and medicine.”
An Indian villager is, lest we forget, a human being and should be entitled to the same fundamental human rights and dignities as the rest of us.
When an Indian villager is beaten up for offending a higher caste, he feels the same pain, anger and humiliation as you and I would.
When his daughter dies for want of 20 rupees worth of antibiotics, he feels loss.
When the elder one is raped by a higher caste man and the cops ignore his complaint – you can have the rural sex-crime figures by going on the UNICEF website – he feels powerless and angry.
When he can’t pay his debts he feels worthless to the point of suicide. (If 1,000 Indian farmers commit suicide annually, how many, I wonder, feel like doing it?)
When a villager looks at his son and grandson and finds them as illiterate and landless as himself, he feels empty, resigned and – a terrible emotion this – hopeless, in the true sense of that word.
And believe it or not, when a villager doesn’t have enough to eat he even feels hungry. Funny that.
Forgive the sarcasm, but writing about India’s poverty, however inconvenient, is a necessary fact of being a foreign correspondent in India.
Indeed, given that two-thirds of Indians remain dirt poor, the amount of column inches that I and other foreign journalists devote to India’s richer classes is disproportionately huge.
The aim is not to lament the mere fact of India’s poverty – that is ‘old hat’ – but rather to scream and yell about how little is being done to alleviate it.
Dr Singh talks bravely about eradicating malnutrition “in five years”, but lets see what the government actually does about it. Talking is not doing.
For most of the first five decades after Independence you could argue that India really wasn’t in an economic position to lift its masses out of poverty, but that is no longer the case.
With India’s new-found economic power come new responsibilities. I believe that India really does have the means – if not sadly the will – to make things better for all of its people and not just a self-satisfied middle class minority.
And if I’m guilty – along with Dr Singh – of pointing out where India, as a civilised society, is disgracefully neglecting those responsibilities, then I plead my guilt without a shred of apology.

Poverty is part of India's story – Telegraph Blogs
 
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