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Chinese Aero Engine information thread

Deino chooses to believe some two lines misinformation, yet refuse to accept any reasonable analysis.

Anyway, who cares what he chooses to believe, his preference won't have any effect on the outcome of the WS-15.

Now, all Chinese military pundits seem to agree that the current J-20 engine is not the final WS-15, but a fourth gen turbofan engine that got nurtured with the technology from the WS-15.

Dear friend,

Firstly, we all like to know what is going on with our favourite bird...

Virtue is to keep on going and let the facts...speak. Not important this convincing business at all.

Keep us posted about developments...also my other favourite...DDG055.

You know that I value your posts...

Any news on the J20 excercise with the rest of the birds...did it smashed them completely?

Thanks,

SPF
 
Because their western EGO deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir:china:

Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.



PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.

Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.

How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?

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Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.



PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.

Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.

How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?

View attachment 363654

View attachment 363655


Yup, we can see that on the China Airshow, J-20 performed, without the afterburner, a slow vertical climb that did not slow down at the top. This shows the Dry Trust to Weight Ratio of the engine to the plane is greater than 1.

If the empty weight of J-20 is greater than F-22's 19.6 tons, plus 3 tons of fuel, then its near 23 tons.

If J-20 is using WS-10 which has reach 140kN thrust, Dry Thrust is around 60% of that, which is 85kN per engine. Double than is 170kN or 17.3 tons.

17.3 tons is no where near the 23 tons lift J-20 slowly and vertically.

F-22 has 156kN Max thrust (93kN Dry Thrust) per engine, or 19 ton total dry Thrust.

This is not enough to lift the 23 tons weight (19.6 + 3 tons of fuels) of F-22, vertically without afterburner.
That's why we are seeing the F-22 need to turn on the Afterburner on almost the whole demo.

@Deino ignored this fact by just insisting the demo of J-20 is not that impressive and it doesn't mean anything.

Now, if J-20 is using WS-15 and its maximum thrust is 180kN as stated in the internet, then its dry thrust is (180kn x 0.6 x 2 = 216kN or 22 Ton)

This is just enough to lift vertically the empty weight, 22 tons, of J-20 without afterburner (we supposed is 22 ton, the same as F-22 plus 2 tons more, since its body is 3 meters longer), not including 3-4 tons of fuel needed to fly from a nearby airport to the demo.

Now, we suppose the empty weight of J-20 is 22 tons plus 4 tons of fuels for the demo, then the Dry Thrust required to lift it vertically is 26 tons, or 255kN or 127.5kN per engine. (127kN is only 13kN less than the maximum thrust 140kN of WS-10) To have 127.5kN of dry thrust per engine, the maximum thrust of the engine must be around a whoopping 212kN (60% of 204kN is 127.2kN)

Coincidentally, 212kN is close to the YAK-141's R79-v300 engine's maximum thrust of 206kN.

China has purchased the YAK-141's R79-v300 engine technology, including all the technical blueprints and documents, from Russia in the 1990's.

Of course, my figures are guess-estimate based on the estimate empty weight of J-20, 22 Tons and plus 4 tons of fuels needed for the demo. I would say 4 tons of fuel, or 1/3 of a full tank, is a conservative figures.

If my figure of J-20's empty weight is anywhere close to the truth, the Maximum thrust of WS-15 is closer to +++ 212kN +++, not 180kN as advertised.

Get that number into your head, folks. WS-15's Maximum Thrust is north of 212kN.

No wonder the Chinese government want to keep the mighty WS-15 under tight wrap. It's power is too shocking for the world to digest.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Su-35's empty weight is 18 tons, plus 4 tons of fuel for the demo then its 22 tons. It's 117S or AL-41F's maximum thrust is 180kN, or total thrust is 360kN, and total Dry Thrust is 216kN, or 22 tons. It's just enough to lift it vertically without afterburner.

This video shows it that is is true. No afterburner is needed. It could hang in mid air and do vertical climb slowly all without the use of afterburner.


The Russian T50 fighter (empty weight 18 tons, using AL-41F engine, same as Su-35) doing spectacular demo, without the use of afterburner.


So in conclusion, there is no doubt in my mind, that the maximum power of WS-15 is much greater than 180kN as advertised, north of 212kN is much more likely.

Eat your heart out, you China bashers. China can't produce a powerful and reliable engine, you say.
 
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Because their western EGO deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir:china:

And they will not admit WS-15 is much more powerful than they could imagine. Perhaps this is what they fear the most. If China is strong, they will not dare to push China anymore.

Here is the user Richard Santos on SinoDefenseForum's comment.

"Given the fact that engine development is clearly the weakest link in China's fighter program, and it is not a stretch to say at least major parts of current Chinese engine technology is still below the level at which the F-119 and F-120 engines for the f-22 and yf-23 were designed, "

They still think China is living in the 90's.

And Pakistan being China's loyal friend and brother will be benefited from more massive investments from China, simply because the international environment will be more stable.

What Pakistan needed the most is more investments that is in the range of billions and lasts for decades. You will not get it from the West. Pakistan don't need aids or handouts from the West. Pakistanis are not beggars. No nation has ever prosper from begging.

They could take care of themselves if massive investment into the infrastructures, schools, roads, and industries are made.

The afterburner thrust of the 117S is around 142kN.

You mean the non-afterburner thrust of 117S is 142kN? The maximum thrust of WS-10 is already 140kN. it got to be much higher. I read it somewhere its 180kN.

A maximum thrust of 140kN will not be enough to lift Su-35 vertically with some fuel.

F-22's F119 engine has reportedly 156kN max thrust, and it can not lift it vertically w/o afterburner. So 117S got to have higher maximum thrust.

This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.

 
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No one found by that name MEng.

MEng, specialise in High thrust Turbine Axels. Read profile.
He/she said that his/her MEng (education background) should be self-obvious.

And if there's any further question, his/her paragraph of below should explain thing...
PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.
though I dunno what is the relationship between his/her statement with the China's engine development...

ChineseTiger1986 did refute messiach's weird comments. Time to move on and ignore any ignorant poster.
The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.

I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.
Because we speak Chinese, while you guys don't.

The primary information about the WS-15 is in Chinese, not in English or German.

The WS-15 has completed its ground test on August 21st 2015, it is well documented among the Chinese speaking medias in the Mainland China.

Btw, thank you Asok for your lengthy, diligent, persuasive and persistent expositions of the engine things, submitted with some relevant info... cool for reading interests though some of the truths may just find their answers long in the future, or even possibly never see the light due to some secrecy practices in military realm :-) however, as long as the expositions are mainly rational and scientific, they are of good reading interests :cheers: cheers!
 
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He/she said that his/her MEng (education background) should be self-obvious.

And if there's any further question, his/her paragraph of below should explain thing...

though I dunno what is the relationship between his/her statement with the China's engine development...

ChineseTiger1986 did refute messiach's weird comments. Time to move on and ignore any ignorant poster.



Btw, thank you Asok for your lengthy, diligent, persuasive and persistent expositions of the engine things, submitted with some relevant info... cool for reading interests though some of the truths may just find their answers long in the future, or even possibly never see the light due to some secrecy practices in military realm :-) however, as long as the expositions are mainly rational and scientific, they are of good reading interests :cheers: cheers!

Thanks Samsara! Your support is greatly appreciated. :cheers:

Dealing with the likes of Deino, who keep comparing nozzle petals, is a real pain to handle. That don't determine anything conclusively since engine exhaust nozzles could look similar without affecting the working of the engine. At least there is no natural laws that prohibit two different engine sharing the same nozzle petals look.

The logic is pretty simple. To vertically lift up a plane slowly like a VTOL plane, it requires thrust to weight ratio > 1. And if we don't see the tell-tale sign of a long hot flame shooting out of the nozzle, then no afterburner was used. Only the military power was used, which is around 60% of the maximum thrust. And If we got a ball park figure of the plane's empty weight, from there, we could figure out the plane's minimum Dry Thrust needed to do the vertical lifting.

This is like a high school algebra problem.

The YAK-141, whose engine R-79V-300, the WS-15 borrowed heavily from, is a very powerful engine with rating of 206kN. This is because its Max. takeoff weight is 19,500 kg or 19.5 ton. So it requires a engine powerful enough to lift it vertically up into the air.

The R-79V-300, has a dry thrust of 108kN or 11 tons or 22 tons totals. It's enough to lift YAK-141 vertically with just dry thrust.

And why using only Dry Thrust is important for YAK-141, because it will be used on a Aircraft Carrier. Using Afterburner with its nozzle turned down to face the deck will burn a hole through steel deck or at least damage it.

Anyone don't believe me? Just look at the board on US Carrier when it launch an airplane. The airplane is back against a board, and the board is cool with water pipes lined inside the board, otherwise the board will melt.

upload_2016-12-29_2-2-35.png


US and British carriers will have this problem if the VSTOL version of F-35 was used. Instead the F-35C carrier-based Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) variant will be used.
 
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@Asok ....


Please ... You are making fun of others but are quoting Wiki !!! Isn't this a joke at all ??
 
@Asok ....


Please ... You are making fun of others but are quoting Wiki !!! Isn't this a joke at all ??

Yes, I am making fun of the gang of fanboys who love to compare engine nozzle petals. The Chinese called them 菊花党, or slang for BUTT GANG. :feminist:

There are quite a few of them in various Chinese forums.
 
Yes, I am making fun of the gang who love to compare engine nozzle petals. The Chinese called them 菊花党, or slang for BUTT GANG. :feminist:

There are quite a few of them in various Chinese forums.

So has every group of fan-boys a special name for the other opposing group of fan-boys !?? Funny, isn't it ?

But in fact we are all more or less well informed, more or less capable of logical thinking, more or less able to read ... and more or less able to understand, more or less blinded by our own perception ... but in the end we are all more or less fishing in the same muddy waters?

Let's have some more fun?
Deino
 
So has every group of fan-boys a special name for the other opposing group of fan-boys !?? Funny, isn't it ?

But in fact we are all more or less well informed, more or less capable of logical thinking, more or less able to read ... and more or less able to understand, more or less blinded by our own perception ... but in the end we are all more or less fishing in the same muddy waters?

Let's have some more fun?
Deino


We are here to entertain each other by sharing our thoughts. That is true. And thanks for being a great moderator. I don't always agree with your opinion, but you are always not slow to slap someone's wrist if he is out of line. I appreciate your time and effort for being our moderator, to keep a bunch of outspoken fanboys inline, Dieno. :guns:
 
You mean the non-afterburner thrust of 117S is 142kN? The maximum thrust of WS-10 is already 140kN. it got to be much higher. I read it somewhere its 180kN.

A maximum thrust of 140kN will not be enough to lift Su-35 vertically with some fuel.

F-22's F119 engine has reportedly 156kN max thrust, and it can not lift it vertically w/o afterburner. So 117S got to have higher maximum thrust.

This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.


The 117S is 142kN afterburner, and the 117 is 145kN afterburner. These engines are not superior to the F119.

You can see that the Su-35 cannot climb at 90 degree vertically like the J-20 and F-22, and the T-50 just used the afterburner for the sharp turn as well.

From 1:28, the F-22 did perform a 90 degree vertical climbing comparable to that of the J-20, but the only difference is that F-22 did it with afterburner, while the J-20 did it without the afterburner.
 
Come on ... each modern fighter can climb vertically. the question is only for how long.

I really don't know why You again and again bring up this video. It shows the J-20 climbing ... YES, but since the one who took these images is also moving You cannot disclose how long and even more since the J-20 is so small if the AB is not engaged during this climb.
In fact - and I know I will get my bashings for that again - it is nothing spectacular, simply lame even more to admit.

Deino
 
The vertical climbing of the F-15 looks extremely weak in comparison.



The Mig-29 did a good job, but it used its full afterburner for a such light aircraft.



The J-20 did it like a park walk without afterburner.
 
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