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Chinese Aero Engine information thread

Finally better late than never, New "WZ-16 turboshaft engine" will be install on Z-15 first flight

另外根据东安在微讯发表的消息,AC352首飞的发动机就是WZ16。
WZ16发动机即将随AC352直升机实现首飞,欢迎关注“东安微讯”了解本型号的最新进展。
WZ16 engine is about to embark on its first flight with AC352 helicopter. Welcome to follow our WeChat public number “dongan120” for the updated status of WZ16 engine.

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Not sure if anyone saw this before, it's documentary on Chinese Heavy Industry. You can see the turbine blade manufacturing and technology progression here. From it, we can find out that WTB supplies to a major Japanese powerplant turbine maker and supplies 50% of those turbine blades.

Most interesting, go to 29:42, you can see a box with the word BHEL(YINDU) on it. LOL. So much for indigenous manufacturer eh?
 
I had been greatly puzzled by why so many PDF members insisted that the WS-15 engine has not been tested on J-20, and that it has running with either WS-10X or AL-31FN.

I can explain this away by thinking that non-Chinese members are simply want to knock down China's achievement, but what about Chinese members's reluctance to accept WS-15 has been tested on J-20?

The secrecy surrounding WS-15's progress has a lot to do with it, but that's not all.

A more rational explanation could be that many PDF members are not familiar with "The Role of Computational Fluid Dynamics Analysis in Engine Design". That is using the power of supercomputer to help with engine design.

Since 2000, China has been making great stride in Supercomputer, "With over 93 petaflops of processing power, the Sunway TaihuLight is far and away the most powerful supercomputer in the world, absolutely smashing its nearest competitor, the Tianhe-2 (another Chinese Supercomputer), which is humming away on a still-not-to-be-scoffed-at 34 petaflops."

And now US and China is tied for 171 systems each within Top500 list outlines the world's most powerful supercomputers.

The use of Supercomputers can greatly simplify the engine design process by simulate the entire engine within the computer, and model the complex airflow within it. A process that takes years to understand could now be simulated could now be modeled with only several hours of computation.

You can be sure that WS-15 engineers has spent thousands of hours in Supercomputer simulation before any parts was built. This is not an option anymore. It's a must if you want a powerful engine that pushes the limit of available materials, engine design and manufacturing process. And the insights gained and time saved by CFD is calculable.

Here is what we know about WS-15:

The WS-15 engine core pre-study was initiated in 1990 with the help of the Russian experts.
In 2000, the engine core was constructed.

15 years later, in 2005, the engine core passed all the performance test in ground bench testing.
In 2006, the WS-15 Engine Project was officially initiated.

Then the stream of official/semi-official news about WS-15 engine project ceased, it went dark.

And around this time, the J-20 design was finalized, and construction began around 2007. In 2009, the Vice Command of PLAAF announced that J-20 will soon make its first flight, and will enter service by 2017-2019.

I believe, by 2010, the first J-20 was fully assembled and first flight was made in the same year. The second J-20, with the same version number 2001, made its first flight in Jan. 11, 2011. This J-20 with the white exhaust nozzle is the WS-15 prototype, IMO.

Based on what I know about CFD, and CAD/CAM (Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing), between 2006 and 2011, IMO, it's entirely possible that Chinese engineers could have assembled a prototype of WS-15, using existing components from WS-15 and AL-31FN, so they could test it in a real setting as soon as possible.

The first WS-15 prototype, of course, would have to be first ground tested, high attitude chamber tested, and a derated WS-15 would be tested on an old plane like J-11. The J-11(
max thrust 120kN-135kN) can not test the full power (180kN) of WS-15, so it must derated or restricted. Only the J-20 designed for WS-15 can test the full thrust of WS-15.

The Engine Core consists of the Compressor, Combustor, and Turbine, but not include the afterburner assembly and exhaust nozzle.

upload_2016-12-25_20-25-2.png


https://www.sharcnet.ca/Software/Ansys/16.2.3/en-us/help/wb_icom/icom_cfd_role.html
"The Role of CFD Analysis in Engine Design"

As described in Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, IC engines involve complex fluid dynamic interactions between air flow, fuel injection, moving geometries, and combustion. Fluid dynamics phenomena like jet formation, wall impingement with swirl and tumble, and turbulence production are critical for high efficiency engine performance and meeting emissions criteria. The design problems that are encountered include port-flow design, combustion chamber shape design, variable valve timing, injection and ignition timing, and design for low or idle speeds.

There are several tools which are used in practice during the design process. These include experimental investigation using test or flow bench setups, 1D codes, analytical models, empirical/historical data, and finally, computational fluid dynamics (CFD). Of these, CFD has the potential for providing detailed and useful information and insights that can be fed back into the design process. This is because in CFD analysis, the fundamental equations that describe fluid flow are being solved directly on a mesh that describes the 3D geometry, with sub-models for turbulence, fuel injection, chemistry, and combustion. Several techniques and sub-models are used for modeling moving geometry motion and its effect on fluid flow.

Using CFD results, the flow phenomena can be visualized on 3D geometry and analyzed numerically, providing tremendous insight into the complex interactions that occur inside the engine. This allows you to compare different designs and quantify the trade-offs such as soot vs NOx, swirl vs tumble and impact on turbulence production, combustion efficiency vs pollutant formation, which helps determine optimal designs. Hence CFD analysis is used extensively as part of the design process in automotive engineering, power generation, and transportation. With the rise of modern and inexpensive computing power and 3D CAD systems, it has become much easier for analysts to perform CFD analysis. In increasing order of complexity, the CFD analyses performed can be classified into
 

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WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.

I had been greatly puzzled by why so many PDF members insisted that the WS-15 engine has not been tested on J-20, and that it has running with either WS-10X or AL-31FN.

I can explain this away by thinking that non-Chinese members are simply want to knock down China's achievement, but what about Chinese members's reluctance to accept WS-15 has been tested on J-20?

The secrecy surrounding WS-15's progress has a lot to do with it, but that's not all.

A more rational explanation could be that many PDF members are not familiar with "The Role of Computational Fluid Dynamics Analysis in Engine Design". That is using the power of supercomputer to help with engine design.

Since 2000, China has been making great stride in Supercomputer, "With over 93 petaflops of processing power, the Sunway TaihuLight is far and away the most powerful supercomputer in the world, absolutely smashing its nearest competitor, the Tianhe-2 (another Chinese Supercomputer), which is humming away on a still-not-to-be-scoffed-at 34 petaflops."

And now US and China is tied for 171 systems each within Top500 list outlines the world's most powerful supercomputers.

The use of Supercomputers can greatly simplify the engine design process by simulate the entire engine within the computer, and model the complex airflow within it. A process that takes years to understand could now be simulated could now be modeled with only several hours of computation.

You can be sure that WS-15 engineers has spent thousands of hours in Supercomputer simulation before any parts was built. This is not an option anymore. It's a must if you want a powerful engine that pushes the limit of available materials, engine design and manufacturing process. And the insights gained and time saved by CFD is calculable.

Here is what we know about WS-15:

The WS-15 engine core pre-study was initiated in 1990 with the help of the Russian experts.
In 2000, the engine core was constructed.

15 years later, in 2005, the engine core passed all the performance test in ground bench testing.
In 2006, the WS-15 Engine Project was officially initiated.

Then the stream of official/semi-official news about WS-15 engine project ceased, it went dark.

And around this time, the J-20 design was finalized, and construction began around 2007. In 2009, the Vice Command of PLAAF announced that J-20 will soon make its first flight, and will enter service by 2017-2019.

I believe, by 2010, the first J-20 was fully assembled and first flight was made in the same year. The second J-20, with the same version number 2001, made its first flight in Jan. 11, 2011. This J-20 with the white exhaust nozzle is the WS-15 prototype, IMO.

Based on what I know about CFD, and CAD/CAM (Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing), between 2006 and 2011, IMO, it's entirely possible that Chinese engineers could have assembled a prototype of WS-15, using existing components from WS-15 and AL-31FN, so they could test it in a real setting as soon as possible.

The first WS-15 prototype, of course, would have to be first ground tested, high attitude chamber tested, and a derated WS-15 would be tested on an old plane like J-11. The J-11(
max thrust 120kN-135kN) can not test the full power (180kN) of WS-15, so it must derated or restricted. Only the J-20 designed for WS-15 can test the full thrust of WS-15.

The Engine Core consists of the Compressor, Combustor, and Turbine, but not include the afterburner assembly and exhaust nozzle.

View attachment 363389

https://www.sharcnet.ca/Software/Ansys/16.2.3/en-us/help/wb_icom/icom_cfd_role.html
"The Role of CFD Analysis in Engine Design"

As described in Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, IC engines involve complex fluid dynamic interactions between air flow, fuel injection, moving geometries, and combustion. Fluid dynamics phenomena like jet formation, wall impingement with swirl and tumble, and turbulence production are critical for high efficiency engine performance and meeting emissions criteria. The design problems that are encountered include port-flow design, combustion chamber shape design, variable valve timing, injection and ignition timing, and design for low or idle speeds.

There are several tools which are used in practice during the design process. These include experimental investigation using test or flow bench setups, 1D codes, analytical models, empirical/historical data, and finally, computational fluid dynamics (CFD). Of these, CFD has the potential for providing detailed and useful information and insights that can be fed back into the design process. This is because in CFD analysis, the fundamental equations that describe fluid flow are being solved directly on a mesh that describes the 3D geometry, with sub-models for turbulence, fuel injection, chemistry, and combustion. Several techniques and sub-models are used for modeling moving geometry motion and its effect on fluid flow.

Using CFD results, the flow phenomena can be visualized on 3D geometry and analyzed numerically, providing tremendous insight into the complex interactions that occur inside the engine. This allows you to compare different designs and quantify the trade-offs such as soot vs NOx, swirl vs tumble and impact on turbulence production, combustion efficiency vs pollutant formation, which helps determine optimal designs. Hence CFD analysis is used extensively as part of the design process in automotive engineering, power generation, and transportation. With the rise of modern and inexpensive computing power and 3D CAD systems, it has become much easier for analysts to perform CFD analysis. In increasing order of complexity, the CFD analyses performed can be classified into
 
WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.

Where is your source of information? Thanks.

Hybrid home grown engine. (Mix of AL-31F and WS-10 technology)

He mention it not only once but twice and stress on the term 国产. I dare to bet PLAAF chief might have told him something juicy which we commoner will not know regarding J-20 development. Yin Zhuo is a high ranking CPC board member plus ex rear admiral rank. His level to classify data will be much higher than rest.

The rest of his speech during the interview is also consistent with what many military watcher conclude that WS-15 engine has not install on J-20 but he claim 'soon'. Without WS-15, PLAAF military jet engine will still be a generation behind USAF. He commented.

Neither WS-10X or AL-31FN can provide enough thrust for J-20 to do Supersonic Cruise. So it can not be either one of them.
 
Neither WS-10X or AL-31FN can provide enough thrust for J-20 to do Supersonic Cruise. So it can not be either one of them.


There is nothing official that states that the current J-20s can supercruise yet.

WS-15 will come but let's not get ahead of ourselves on the J-20. When it is installed it should be different enough from a AL-31 that we can easily tell the difference without guessing. The petals on all engines are distinctive from each other. Especially in the case of the WS-15 which is a generation later.

I would be sorely dissapointed if the WS-15 ends up with an end that looks like the AL-31 which in turn brings the question whether the core is the same as the AL-31 as well. No, the WS-10's petals are highly distinctive from the AL-31 and so will the WS-15's.
 
WS15 had compressor-combustor assembly issues. The engine core has not been approved for ground bench testing. It is still several years in development.
But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks
 
But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks

The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.

I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.
 
Please don't take this as an offence, ... but You know what You are talking about ?
You have first hand access to this top-secret data and information on the WS-15's development ??

I mean, if YES, then fine but wouldn't this then be some sort of betrayal or the telling of secrets ?

But if not ... so You are more or less guessing in the same way like so many others here ???

Again, I do not want to offend You, but since You tell she (I thought HE ?) does not know what he speaks then why are You so sure ?

Deino
 
PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.
But sir @ChineseTiger1986 already stated in the J-20 thread that WS-15 complete its ground testing and started air tested on IL-76 engine test-bed, Thanks

PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperatures above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.

The development of the WS-15 is highly classified, she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Who cares if she got a background of turbine alxes or not, she is not in position to make improper comments on the WS-15.

I might want to listen if she wants to give us the lecture about the RR engines.
 
Please don't take this as an offence, ... but You know what You are talking about ?
You have first hand access to this top-secret data and information on the WS-15's development ??

I mean, if YES, then fine but wouldn't this then be some sort of betrayal or the telling of secrets ?

But if not ... so You are more or less guessing in the same way like so many others here ???

Again, I do not want to offend You, but since You tell she (I thought HE ?) does not know what he speaks then why are You so sure ?

Deino

Because we speak Chinese, while you guys don't.

The primary information about the WS-15 is in Chinese, not in English or German.

The WS-15 has completed its ground test on August 21st 2015, it is well documented among the Chinese speaking medias in the Mainland China.
 
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PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperature above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.


PST TiSC Al with high ductility averaging 6-7% and high tensile strengths upto 10^3 MPA being developed for HTT compressor assembly underperform @ temperatures above 800C. It will be time before you see WS15.

Kind madam,

Firstly, many thanks for your valuable insights and contributions...please, do not be offended by some impolite posts..especially from your own countryman...at least he carries your flags...

Please, continue with your views and contributions.

Some of us highly value your professional insights. Educational!

If some Chinese friends do not agree with your insights...one expects them to respectfully disagree and not show unnecssary brovado like the indians... after all Confucians morality dictates so... now the shaff from hay will be distinguished. Let us see.

Regards,

SPF

@Shotgunner51
 
Deino chooses to believe some two lines misinformation, yet refuse to accept any reasonable analysis.

Anyway, who cares what he chooses to believe, his preference won't have any effect on the outcome of the WS-15.

Now, all Chinese military pundits seem to agree that the current J-20 engine is not the final WS-15, but a fourth gen turbofan engine that got nurtured with the technology from the WS-15.
Because their western EGO deny this fact China almost Completed WS-15 sir:china:
 
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