Children of the Indus

[Bharat Muslim]

If My memory serves me right , Indus originates from Sindhu . Sindhu originates from Vedas

You here? Your exams over or what? Where do you study? J&K or outside that state?

Indus runs through every region in Pakistan.

Show us the river map. I think only a small part of Baluchistan has the river Indus. That means practically Indus doesn't flow through that province.

@PAKISTANFOREVER it would be better if you delete your first post which you made after misunderstanding the contents in the OP.....this is a very important thread

Anyone else other than Aitzaz Ahsan who suggested the idea of Indus defining the Pakistani nation? Pakistani or non-Pakistani person....?

 

[Tergon18]

Show us the river map. I think only a small part of Baluchistan has the river Indus. That means practically Indus doesn't flow through that province.

The Zhob and Kundar Rivers, both tributaries of the Indus (just like Jhelum, Chenab etc.) pass through Balochistan.

 

[Winchester]

You here? Your exams over or what? Where do you study? J&K or outside that state?


Show us the river map. I think only a small part of Baluchistan has the river Indus. That means practically Indus doesn't flow through that province.


Anyone else other than Aitzaz Ahsan who suggested the idea of Indus defining the Pakistani nation? Pakistani or non-Pakistani person....?

I have heard about R.E.M. Wheeler's Five Thousand Years of Pakistan released way back in 1950 presenting the same idea.

 

[Zibago]

@Tergon18

 

[Indus Pakistan]

R.E.M. Wheeler's Five Thousand Years of Pakistan

Five Thousand Years of Pakistan: an Archaeological Outline Hardcover – 1950
by R.E.M. Wheeler (Author)

Link > https://www.amazon.com/Five-Thousan...dp/B000GR8E1E?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

And Sir Mortimer Wheeler was not just a nobody. He was the archaeologist who first excavated the ruins of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Wheeler

@PAKISTANFOREVER

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Five Thousand Years of Pakistan: an Archaeological Outline Hardcover – 1950
by R.E.M. Wheeler (Author)

Link > https://www.amazon.com/Five-Thousan...dp/B000GR8E1E?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

And Sir Mortimer Wheeler was not just a nobody. He was the archaeologist who first excavated the ruins of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Wheeler

@PAKISTANFOREVER

That is definitely essential reading for me.

 

[Butchcassidy]

You see i dont know much about these genetics testing. I was simply using my common sense. How they are genealogically different when Rajputs/jats/gujjar and all these Punjabi/Sindhi/Muhair castes are same caste which exist in India as well and they openly claim their Hindu ancestry/forefathers who were converted into islam later on so you will never hear it from any janjua,bajwa, bhatti, gujjar, memon etc that they have any arab, Iranian, Turkish ancestry the way Pakistaniforever was portraying in here. Its quiet funny that Arabs and Persian laugh over such claim and similarities with them so we are just making fun of ourselves when we associate ourselves with them

Those genetic tests dont mean much. They have a very small sample size. Essentially no statistical difference between these biraderis on either side of the border. I dont know how people can think that theses biraderis on the Pakistan side were anything different. Having the same last name means that there were conversions to different religions within the same caste. People are delusional

 

[Tergon18]

Those genetic tests dont mean much. They have a very small sample size. Essentially no statistical difference between these biraderis on either side of the border. I dont know how people can think that theses biraderis on the Pakistan side were anything different. Having the same last name means that there were conversions to different religions within the same caste. People are delusional

The Harappa DNA Project has taken the largest samples from not only South Asia but across the Middle East, Central Asia as well. It is also the most cited or referenced to study by all genealogists when studying South Asia. Have you actually even seen it? Do you think genetic studies are a sham? The sample sizes are given as well. It is obvious that people in the North-West would have different genetics than say people of the North, Centre, South or East of a country especially when this region was the corridor through which all invasions took place and has remained historically seperate from the Gangetic and Dravidic regions (other than 80 years under Ashoka, 400 or so under Mughal/Turkic, 98 under British) I have already explain in excruciating detail in a previous comment about exactly how the baradaries are 'similar', please refer to that. Anyway as I have stated before I'll say this again: Punjabis form only 2% of India, Sindhi form only 0.3% of India (realistically) and Mahajirs form only 6% of Pakistanis. Those are the only similarities between us and they form only 8% of us.

 

[Butchcassidy]

The Harappa DNA Project has taken the largest samples from not only South Asia but across the Middle East, Central Asia as well. It is also the most cited or referenced to study by all genealogists when studying South Asia. Have you actually even seen it? Do you think genetic studies are a sham? The sample sizes are given as well. It is obvious that people in the North-West would have different genetics than say people of the North, Centre, South or East of a country especially when this region was the corridor through which all invasions took place and has remained historically seperate from the Gangetic and Dravidic regions (other than 80 years under Ashoka, 400 or so under Mughal/Turkic, 98 under British) I have already explain in excruciating detail in a previous comment about exactly how the baradaries are 'similar', please refer to that. Anyway as I have stated before I'll say this again: Punjabis form only 2% of India, Sindhi form only 0.3% of India (realistically) and Mahajirs form only 6% of Pakistanis. Those are the only similarities between us and they form only 8% of us.

They have my sample, zac is a friend of mine and i have a phd in molecular biology.
Sooooo yes i know what i am talking about puttar ji
And zak is not a geneticist, he is a phd in stats

 

[Tergon18]

They have my sample, zac is a friend of mine and i have a phd in molecular biology.
Sooooo yes i know what i am talking about puttar ji

Then why are you so uptight about it puttar ji. The samples are listed right next to the sample names on the spreadsheet and they dont look inadequate to me.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Then why are you so uptight about it puttar ji. The samples are listed right next to the sample names on the spreadsheet and they dont look inadequate to me.

Nobody is doubting the samples, they have very very few sample and the results cannot be extrapolated to the general population. Zak had specifically mentioned that do not use this data for any kind of ancestory subgrouping. Another reason he had to close the message board because ppl were arguing about stupid stuff ehich had no scientific validity. To draw any conclusions the sample size for each caste/ethnicity should be in several hundreds considering the large population base.

 

[Tergon18]

Nobody is doubting the samples, they have very very few sample and the results cannot be extrapolated to the general population. Zak had specifically mentioned that do not use this data for any kind of ancestory subgrouping. Another reason he had to close the message board because ppl were arguing about stupid stuff ehich had no scientific validity. To draw any conclusions the sample size for each caste/ethnicity should be in several hundreds considering the large population base.

Well we can conclude that the ANI:ASI ratios, overall taking populations of both India and Pakistan, are going to be different.

https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&...ggdMAE&usg=AFQjCNGPiRJ_aH8cftNQ2n2gUvh12ev9Xg

This is the Harvard Genealogical Study of India, which basically is to show the presence of ANI and ASI, the two 'Pathan' and 'Sindhi' samples are showing different ANI:ASI ratios as compared to the other populations of India. In general would you not agree that Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs show different ANI (including Gedrosian Baloch, Caucasian, NorthEastern European) and ASI ratios as compared to UPites, Bengalis, Tamils, Marathis etc.

About the baradaries being similar, I have already explained that in an above comment to another person so you should refer to that.

Also, the sample size for the South Asian populations atleast for most baradaries/clans average around 15-25 for individual samples. I'd say that is good enough. We cant say that they would be 100% same for the rest of the clans/baradries but we can conclude that the overall Pakistani population samples would have different percentages, as they do to the overall Indian populations even if the sample size is doubled or tripled. The message board was closed because people were trolling, spamming and posting all sorts of dumb comments in there.

 

[TMA]

ok i'm not siding with the indians or saying everything you said was wrong but seriously how can you believe there is non-existent link when it' probably the no 1 country have common ties with what about mohajirs ? what about the shared geographical link,language ,history,foods and culture and common ethnic groups on both sides of the border(punjabis,sindhis,kashmiris,gujaratis etc) - many pakistanis I know still has some relatives in india and vice versa with indian muslims hell musharraf was born in india and manmohan singh was born in pakistan.
I know there is animosity between us and i'm not saying we need to unite or anything but claiming pakistan and india have no link or have never had one is just plain denial.

All humans share links. E.g. Some Americans have British ancestry.

The way I see it is that the Indian Subcontinent is a bit like the continent of Europe; just a bit denser.

Europeans have some sort of collective identity even before this mess called the E.U and have great similarities however no-one would suggest that a Frenchmen is the same as a Russian or that a Swede is the same as a Greek.

In fact I would dare to say that there is greater genetic, linguistic & cultural diversity in the Subcontinent than in Europe (excluding the relatively recent arrivals of non-Europeans)

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Those genetic tests dont mean much. They have a very small sample size. Essentially no statistical difference between these biraderis on either side of the border. I dont know how people can think that theses biraderis on the Pakistan side were anything different. Having the same last name means that there were conversions to different religions within the same caste. People are delusional

Boht Indians and Pakistani should realize that India and Pakistan represent different diverse ethnic groups so its not possible to make sweeping generalization about entire country as origin of all ethnic groups within country might not be the same. Indians cannot say that all ethnic groups in paksitan were converted from Hindus because Pakistan has more ethnic groups beside some Punjabi and Sindhi who claim Hindu ancestry and still use those surname. Pakistani cannot say that all ethnic groups in Pakistan has nothing to do with Hindus because of their personal hatred for Hindus. Its simple to make up your mind and then go for finding evidence to support your claim and btw those people who belong to these Punjabi and Sindhi castes/tribes/subtribes know where they exactly came from and they dont deny their origin. No rajput will deny that his ancestors were Hindus who were converted into Islam at some point in past and some conversion were as recent as in 12th century. Pakistan and India may be two enemy state now so we had witnessed muslism Rajputs and jats went againt Indian rajputs and jats in wars as they boht were loyal to their own countries but fact remain that they belong to same ethnic group but different religion and country

 

[Tergon18]

Boht Indians and Pakistani should realize that India and Pakistan represent different diverse ethnic groups so its not possible to make sweeping generalization about entire country as origin of all ethnic groups within country might not be the same. Indians cannot say that all ethnic groups in paksitan were converted from Hindus because Pakistan has more ethnic groups beside some Punjabi and Sindhi who claim Hindu ancestry and still use those surname. Pakistani cannot say that all ethnic groups in Pakistan has nothing to do with Hindus because of their personal hatred for Hindus. Its simple to make up your mind and then go for finding evidence to support your claim and btw those people who belong to these Punjabi and Sindhi castes/tribes/subtribes know where they exactly came from and they dont deny their origin. No rajput will deny that his ancestors were Hindus who were converted into Islam at some point in past and some conversion were as recent as in 12th century. Pakistan and India may be two enemy state now so we had witnessed muslism Rajputs and jats went againt Indian rajputs and jats in wars as they boht were loyal to their own countries but fact remain that they belong to same ethnic group but different religion and country

My friend I believe we got off on the wrong foot. What you are saying is essentially correct that the people of Pakistan (Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs) are not one homogeneous group of people but different ethicities. India has a lot more ethnicities then that and they are not homogenous either. It think that you have misunderstood the article and the discussion that is taking place here. No one is denying conversion to Islam in and around the 12th to 14th centuries. What I had simply stated was that 'Hinduism' isnt a uniform religion of sorts like Abrahamic religions and it varies heavily from region to region. Not to mention the fact that the name Hinduism was first used by the British in the 19th century to refer to the different pracrices and gods of the people of the Ganges and Dravidia regions. The people of the Indus prior to conversion to Islam did not practice the exact same creed/religion that was given the name of Hinduism and the one that is practiced today. It was an earlier, Vedic form of Hinduism. Sindhi Muslim tribes were historically seperate than Sindhi Hindu tribes being more rural/agricultural based while Sindhi Hindus were urban traders. The clans (Bhutto, Abro, Junejo etc.) arent found in Sindhi Hindus. Jatts of Punjab form only 1% of India (since Punjabis form only 2% of India) so why should it even matter in the first place. Rajput isnt an ethnicity since anyone couldve been made a Rajput by the Brahmanical order around the 1st century AD. Most Rajput subclans (gots) of Pakistan like Khokhar, Kharral, Sial, Wattoo, Gheba etc. arent found in India and are completely native to Pakistan (the Indus Region). And no one is claiming Arab/Turkic/Iranian ancestry either as you said earlier.

I am again (its for the 4th time now I think) going to present to you with some statistics which should lay to rest all the issues you may have with the article or this discussion

Punjabis form only 2% of Indians
Sindhi refugees form 0.3% of Indians (realistic estimate)
Mohajirs, from UP/Bihar/Delhi/Deccan, form only 6% of Pakistanis.

Please try to understand these simple facts. Otherwise I will just have to keep repeating these percentages until you finally realise why your argument doesnt have much substance.