Children of the Indus

[salarsikander]

Ok. Was Aitzaz Ahsan first person to suggest that Indus river defines Pakistani nation? Did anybody else (Pakistani or foreigner) do that before? If yes, tell more about him/her and post links.

@Kaptaan @WAJsal @Maira La @CHARGER @Tergon18 @Max @PaklovesTurkiye @A-Team @Azad-Kashmiri @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Pakistani Exile @PAKISTANFOREVER @salarsikander @Donatello @Horus @somebozo @WebMaster @AgNoStiC MuSliM @ghazi52 @Zibago @Kashmiri Pandit @graphican @Devil Soul @Oscar @Slav Defence @Windjammer @MM_Haider @Rashid Mahmood @barbarosa @Barbaros68 @Barbaros @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Max @Tripoli

@Rana of Heryana @Sinnerman108 @DESERT FIGHTER @Sulman Badshah @Icarus @All-Green @Tipu7 @Fawad Masīd @HRK

@A1Kaid @Armstrong @Arsalan

@Hasnat Sheikh

Stop tagging me in useless posts, what difference does it make?

 

[Max]

Ok. Was Aitzaz Ahsan first person to suggest that Indus river defines Pakistani nation? Did anybody else (Pakistani or foreigner) do that before? If yes, tell more about him/her and post links.

@Kaptaan @WAJsal @Maira La @CHARGER @Tergon18 @Max @PaklovesTurkiye @A-Team @Azad-Kashmiri @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Pakistani Exile @PAKISTANFOREVER @salarsikander @Donatello @Horus @somebozo @WebMaster @AgNoStiC MuSliM @ghazi52 @Zibago @Kashmiri Pandit @graphican @Devil Soul @Oscar @Slav Defence @Windjammer @MM_Haider @Rashid Mahmood @barbarosa @Barbaros68 @Barbaros @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Max @Tripoli

@Rana of Heryana @Sinnerman108 @DESERT FIGHTER @Sulman Badshah @Icarus @All-Green @Tipu7 @Fawad Masīd @HRK

@A1Kaid @Armstrong @Arsalan

@Hasnat Sheikh

what i as Pakistani believe is that indus is our heritage and history, not ideology which define Pakistan, Islam, islamic social walfare state is our ideology but if someone does not believe in this then he is free to think like Aitzaz, Aitzaz answered and raped those bhangis who question our existence without 2 nation theory, and say we are part of their existence, without them we are nothing, we are same as telgue, marathi bengali, asamese, biharis etc who say Indus belong to ganga.. so you should look this in context the article was wrote, he answered all these lies.. Indus region and its achievements in history, culture belong to its people not to some gangalanders.. Indus does not need ganga for existence as Indus region existed alone in almost all of its history.. Gangalanders although need Indus to claim our civilization as theirs bcoz they dont have their own, ganga walas were follower of my ancestors and will always remain follower.. Just look at how gangalander are embracing islam sufism after people of indus embrace it, which is growing fastest in india.. Its perfect example of paidaishi followers..

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

ok i'm not siding with the indians or saying everything you said was wrong but seriously how can you believe there is non-existent link when it' probably the no 1 country have common ties with what about mohajirs ? what about the shared geographical link,language ,history,foods and culture and common ethnic groups on both sides of the border(punjabis,sindhis,kashmiris,gujaratis etc) - many pakistanis I know still has some relatives in india and vice versa with indian muslims hell musharraf was born in india and manmohan singh was born in pakistan.
I know there is animosity between us and i'm not saying we need to unite or anything but claiming pakistan and india have no link or have never had one is just plain denial.

Complete false logic which can be quite dangerous. I live in London, the most cosmopolitan and multiracial city in the world and I know with 100% certainty that what you say is completely wrong. I have seen 1000s of Pakistanis and Indians in my life to know how really different we are. If we were not then Pakistan would never have been formed. Indian men, women and children look completely different to Pakistani men, women and children. I have interacted with many Indians all my life and not on one occasion did I see or feel that we had anything in common with them. They seemed as alien to Pakistani people as sub-Saharan Africans are. The only Indians that remotely resemble Pakistanis are Indian Punjabis but they make no more than 4% of Indians so 96% of Indians have nothing in common with 100% of Pakistanis.

The only people I ever felt warmth to and that had any sort of commonality with Pakistanis are practicing Middle Eastern Muslims. Pakistan culture is a derivative of Islamic culture and ethos whereas Indian culture is derived from hinduism.

As Kaaptan and others on pdf have explained the genetic differences between the Pakistanis and the Indian race which explains the obvious physical differences between the 2 aswell, I will not repeat it here again.

Your notion that we are the same as Indians is very dangerous. It's the same propaganda which made I'll informed Pakistanis believe that the bengalis were the same as us. And we all know how that ended up.

Ok. Was Aitzaz Ahsan first person to suggest that Indus river defines Pakistani nation? Did anybody else (Pakistani or foreigner) do that before? If yes, tell more about him/her and post links.

@Kaptaan @WAJsal @Maira La @CHARGER @Tergon18 @Max @PaklovesTurkiye @A-Team @Azad-Kashmiri @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Pakistani Exile @PAKISTANFOREVER @salarsikander @Donatello @Horus @somebozo @WebMaster @AgNoStiC MuSliM @ghazi52 @Zibago @Kashmiri Pandit @graphican @Devil Soul @Oscar @Slav Defence @Windjammer @MM_Haider @Rashid Mahmood @barbarosa @Barbaros68 @Barbaros @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Max @Tripoli

@Rana of Heryana @Sinnerman108 @DESERT FIGHTER @Sulman Badshah @Icarus @All-Green @Tipu7 @Fawad Masīd @HRK

@A1Kaid @Armstrong @Arsalan

@Hasnat Sheikh

Can you stop tagging me to your meaningless indian mumbo jumbo propaganda bs. Don't really want to know you or your bs.

 

[Tergon18]

Complete false logic which can be quite dangerous. I live in London, the most cosmopolitan and multiracial city in the world and I know with 100% certainty that what you say is completely wrong. I have seen 1000s of Pakistanis and Indians in my life to know how really different we are. If we were not then Pakistan would never have been formed. Indian men, women and children look completely different to Pakistani men, women and children. I have interacted with many Indians all my life and not on one occasion did I see or feel that we had anything in common with them. They seemed as alien to Pakistani people as sub-Saharan Africans are. The only Indians that remotely resemble Pakistanis are Indian Punjabis but they make no more than 4% of Indians so 96% of Indians have nothing in common with 100% of Pakistanis.

The only people I ever felt warmth to and that had any sort of commonality with Pakistanis are practicing Middle Eastern Muslims. Pakistan culture is a derivative of Islamic culture and ethos whereas Indian culture is derived from hinduism.

As Kaaptan and others on pdf have explained the genetic differences between the Pakistanis and the Indian race which explains the obvious physical differences between the 2 aswell, I will not repeat it here again.

Your notion that we are the same as Indians is very dangerous. It's the same propaganda which made I'll informed Pakistanis believe that the bengalis were the same as us. And we all know how that ended up.




Can you stop tagging me to your meaningless indian mumbo jumbo propaganda bs. Don't really want to know you or your bs.

Man, have you even read the article? What Aitzaz Ahsan and OP are saying is that the Indus Region (Pakistan) has historically been seperate and distinct from India (the Ganges and Dravidia), with its own culture, languages and ethnicities. They are actually agreeing with you. Dont know why you are so uptight about it.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

what i as Pakistani believe is that indus is our heritage and history, not ideology which define Pakistan, Islam, islamic social walfare state is our ideology but if someone does not believe in this then he is free to think like Aitzaz, Aitzaz answered and raped those bhangis who question our existence without 2 nation theory, and say we are part of their existence, without them we are nothing, we are same as telgue, marathi bengali, asamese, biharis etc who say Indus belong to ganga.. so you should look this in context the article was wrote, he answered all these lies.. Indus region and its achievements in history, culture belong to its people not to some gangalanders.. Indus does not need ganga for existence as Indus region existed alone in almost all of its history.. Gangalanders although need Indus to claim our civilization as theirs bcoz they dont have their own, ganga walas were follower of my ancestors and will always remain follower.. Just look at how gangalander are embracing islam sufism after people of indus embrace it, which is growing fastest in india.. Its perfect example of paidaishi followers..

Bro, the author of the OP is a supporter of PPP and the Bhuttos/zardaris. That tells you all you need to know about the his low value, low honest and integrity.

Man, have you even read the article? What Aitzaz Ahsan and OP are saying is that the Indus Region (Pakistan) has historically been seperate and distinct from India (the Ganges and Dravidia), with its own culture, languages and ethnicities. They are actually agreeing with you. Dont know why you are so uptight about it.

LOL........sorry I am getting carried away with emotion.....thanks for correcting me. Respect to you.

 

[Bharat Muslim]

Man, have you even read the article? What Aitzaz Ahsan and OP are saying is that the Indus Region (Pakistan) has historically been seperate and distinct from India (the Ganges and Dravidia), with its own culture, languages and ethnicities. They are actually agreeing with you. Dont know why you are so uptight about it.

I am not saying anything regarding this. I have merely copy-pasted the article.

Since Himachal Pradesh and Haryana were parts of Punjab, were they also children of Indus?

 

[Winchester]

Can anyone here post a link to Aitizaz Ahsan's book

 

[Tergon18]

I am not saying anything regarding this. I have merely copy-pasted the article.

Since Himachal Pradesh and Haryana were parts of Punjab, were they also children of Indus?

Part of British Punjab, you mean. They shouldnt have been amalgamated with Punjab in the first place since they speak totally different languages and have a different culture. Haryana? Not modern day Haryana since they speak a Central Indo-Aryan language and none of the five rivers of Punjab pass through it. However they were the border of the Indus Valley Civilization, so in a roundabout way they could be. About Himachal, its unlikely that it was part of the Indus Valley Civilization or the Rig Vedic Indo-Aryan period due to the geography and lack of sites there. Also Himachalis form only 0.5% of India's population so it should'nt matter anyway.

what i as Pakistani believe is that indus is our heritage and history, not ideology which define Pakistan, Islam, islamic social walfare state is our ideology but if someone does not believe in this then he is free to think like Aitzaz, Aitzaz answered and raped those bhangis who question our existence without 2 nation theory, and say we are part of their existence, without them we are nothing, we are same as telgue, marathi bengali, asamese, biharis etc who say Indus belong to ganga.. so you should look this in context the article was wrote, he answered all these lies.. Indus region and its achievements in history, culture belong to its people not to some gangalanders.. Indus does not need ganga for existence as Indus region existed alone in almost all of its history.. Gangalanders although need Indus to claim our civilization as theirs bcoz they dont have their own, ganga walas were follower of my ancestors and will always remain follower.. Just look at how gangalander are embracing islam sufism after people of indus embrace it, which is growing fastest in india.. Its perfect example of paidaishi followers..

Exactly. And not to mention the fact that one of the oldest and greatest civilizations of antiquity, the Indus Valley Civilization, was all in our homeland, Pakistan. We are the rightful successors to this great civilization.
Hinduism, too is evolved from the original Rig Vedic Indo-Aryans who formed the Rig Veda (1500 BC) entirely in modern day Pakistan at the Indus. It had heavy similarities to the parallel Avestan of Iran, another great Indo-Iranian text. This was still at a time when the Ganga-walas and Dravida-walas were still uncivillized and had no culture. It was very much monotheistic as proven by this Rig Vedic verse:

Indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān,ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.To what is One, sages give many a title — they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan."

Later, Hinduism moved on to the Ganges Region and Dravidia and became heavily influenced by Dravidian customs, adding many gods and losing its originality with texts such as the Mahabharata and Ramayana being formed there.

Many Indians like to claim that they 'defeated' Alexander and take a lot of, albeit misguided, pride in it. They all become totally flabbergasted when told that Alexander never actually stepped foot in India. It was only the spirit of the great heroes of the Indus such as Raja Porus that forced the Macedonian who had brought Greece, Babylonia, Egypt and Persia to their knees, to finally be stopped and turned away. It was our ancestors who fought off Alexander and almost mortally wounded him at the Battle of Multan.

This is our legacy. The legacy of our homeland that the Rig Vedic Indo-Aryans called Aryavarta, the Indus.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

The article is more conjecture and obscure ramblings that have been posted before on PDF that fails to address/answer the ground realities. Such as why Pakistanis do not physically resemble indians and in fact resemble Iranians and Southern Turks more and to a lesser extent Arabs aswell? Why we think differently and why our way of life is completely different to that of indian people?

It seems the author is another ignorant Pakistani liberal who is trying to find a non-existent link between Pakistan and india. By the same token one could write an article claiming that Pakistan has a link to Puerto Rico. Both Pakistanis and Puerto Ricans are a beautiful race of people with feirce masculine domineering Alpha males. Therefore Puerto Ricans and Pakistanis must be related.

Both links are ridiculous and retarded. But can be justified in a morbid way. Another Pakistan liberal EPIC FAIL.

What is your ethnicity ? India and Pakistan is home of people belong to different ethnicities, culture and languages so it will be naive to say that all Indians belong to one ethnic group and all Pakistani are same. Different castes and ethnicities of Pakistan has relevance to India where they have people belong to same ethnic/caste and there is difference of religion which mold culture to some extent . Similarly certain ethnic groups(pashtun, baloch etc) in Pakistan might have relevance with Iran and Afghanistan where same ethnic group exit so please broad your mind

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

What is your ethnicity ? India and Pakistan is home of people belong to different ethnicities, culture and languages so it will be naive to say that all Indians belong to one ethnic group and all Pakistani are same. Different castes and ethnicities of Pakistan has relevance to India where they have people belong to same ethnic/caste and there is difference of religion which mold culture to some extent . Similarly certain ethnic groups(pashtun, baloch etc) in Pakistan might have relevance with Iran and Afghanistan where same ethnic group exit so please broad your mind

The vast majority of the different ethnic and racial groups that make up the Indian nation are different to those that make up the Pakistani nation. We are different to them and always will be. If we weren't then Pakistan would not exist. This is the reality that many have great difficulty in accepting. I don't however.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

The vast majority of the different ethnic and racial groups that make up the Indian nation are different to those that make up the Pakistani nation. We are different to them and always will be. If we weren't then Pakistan would not exist. This is the reality that many have great difficulty in accepting. I don't however.

Different in what sense? You dont eat roti, daal subzi? Pakistani punjabi or Sindhi dont understand the language of Indian Punjabi and sindhi? How is Pakistani rajput, gujjar, jats is different than Indian jats or rajput beside difference in religion?You have 5 Pakistani rajputs who won nishan haider fighting for Pakistan. My point was that its stupid to say that all Pakistani belong to one group and all Indian are same and they dont differ to each others. Differences exist within one country. Pakistani people might be same as far as religion is concern but are different when it come to ethnic, culture, food habit, language etc so again you have not told me about your ethnicity ?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Different in what sense? You dont eat roti, daal subzi? Pakistani punjabi or Sindhi dont understand the language of Indian Punjabi and sindhi? How is Pakistani rajput, gujjar, jats is different than Indian jats or rajput beside difference in religion?You have 5 Pakistani rajputs who won nishan haider fighting for Pakistan. My point was that its stupid to say that all Pakistani belong to one group and all Indian are same and they dont differ to each others. Differences exist within one country. Pakistani people might be same as far as religion is concern but are different when it come to ethnic, culture, food habit, language etc so again you have not told me about your ethnicity ?

The Indian Punjabis you mentioned above only represent less than 4% of India. And they have limited similarities to Pakistanis. So by that definition, at least 96% of Indians have nothing in common whatsoever with 100% of Pakistanis. The Punjabi connection is very misleading. Again by that definition Pakistanis are Iranians because we share the province of Balochistan together. Think we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Tergon18]

Different in what sense? You dont eat roti, daal subzi? Pakistani punjabi or Sindhi dont understand the language of Indian Punjabi and sindhi? How is Pakistani rajput, gujjar, jats is different than Indian jats or rajput beside difference in religion?You have 5 Pakistani rajputs who won nishan haider fighting for Pakistan. My point was that its stupid to say that all Pakistani belong to one group and all Indian are same and they dont differ to each others. Differences exist within one country. Pakistani people might be same as far as religion is concern but are different when it come to ethnic, culture, food habit, language etc so again you have not told me about your ethnicity ?

Again, as I have previously said no one is denying links to India or saying that we are totally, completely, absolutely different (as in Chinese and European form of different). If you are going to talk about similarities then the French and the Italians are similar as well as are the English and the Germans. However the fact remains that we are ethnically, linguistically, culturally and historically different.

Daal, roti, sabzi etc. and their variations are eaten in Iran all across the Middle East upto Turkey and even the Balkans. Punjabis form only 2% of Indians while Sindhis refugees from Pakistan might end up realistically forming 0.3% of Indians. Pakistan Rajputs, Gujjars and Jatts etc. are genealogically different to their Indian counterparts. Please refer to the link of the Harappa DNA Project above which Kaptaan has posted. This should lay to rest all of your queries.

The Indian Punjabis you mentioned above only represent less than 4% of India. And they have limited similarities to Pakistanis. So by that definition, at least 96% of Indians have nothing in common whatsoever with 100% of Pakistanis. The Punjabi connection is very misleading. Again by that definition Pakistanis are Iranians because we share the province of Balochistan together. Think we'll agree to disagree.

Your comment above was really misleading, and I think you misread the article as 'Children of India' rather than the 'Indus'. Yaar, this is leading people to miss the whole point of the article.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

The Indian Punjabis you mentioned above only represent less than 4% of India. And they have limited similarities to Pakistanis. So by that definition, at least 96% of Indians have nothing in common whatsoever with 100% of Pakistanis. The Punjabi connection is very misleading. Again by that definition Pakistanis are Iranians because we share the province of Balochistan together. Think we'll agree to disagree.

Indian Punjabi Population : 44,000,000
Pakistani Punjabi population: 93,500,000

Pakistani Sindhi Population : 35,700,000
Indian Sindhi population: 3,810,000

Indian kashmiri population: 12,541,302
Pakistani kashmiri population: 2,580,000 and Gilgit-Baltistan is 870,347

I am not even counting those Urdu speaking muhajirs who migrated from india and still has some relatives in there.

Are Pakistani pashtun any different to afghan pashtuns when have same tribes exist in boht countries Pakistan and Afghanistan? You are confusing nationality with ethnic groups which are two different identity. I am saying that Pakistan and India both host different ethnic groups so differences vary from one ethnic group to others rather than one country to others. Different ethnicities of Pakistan got united under the banner of Islam to create this country we call Pakistan..

Pakistan Rajputs, Gujjars and Jatts etc. are genealogically different to their Indian counterparts.

What are differences beside religion?

 

[Tergon18]

Indian Punjabi Population : 44,000,000
Pakistani Punjabi population: 93,500,000

Pakistani Sindhi Population : 35,700,000
Indian Sindhi population: 3,810,000

Indian kashmiri population: 12,541,302
Pakistani kashmiri population: 2,580,000 and Gilgit-Baltistan is 870,347

I am not even counting those Urdu speaking muhajirs who migrated from india and still has some relatives in there.

Are Pakistani pashtun any different to afghan pashtuns when have same tribes exist in boht countries Pakistan and Afghanistan? You are confusing nationality with ethnic groups which are two different identity. I am saying that Pakistan and India both host different ethnic groups so differences vary from one ethnic group to others rather than one country to others. Different ethnicities of Pakistan got united under the banner of Islam to create this country we call Pakistan..


What are differences beside religion?

That still doesnt change the fact that Punjabis form only 2% of Indians and Sindhis form only 0.3% (realistic estimate) of Indians. Please do count Mohajirs as well since they form only 6% of Pakistanis. It doesnt change anything. About Pashtuns, there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan than almost the entire population of Afghanistan (which includes not only Pashtuns but Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks etc.). Afghan Pashtuns are known to speak Dari as well and have many Afghan specific tribes such as Karzai, Ghilzai and Barakzai etc.

I am not denying that we totally seperate. You havent read my comment above, I guess. I agree that we have different ethnicities all settled on the Indus, part of its history and culture and therefore are one nation. There are way more Punjabis in Pakistan than India and way more Pashtuns in Pakistan than Afghanistan, so that shouldnt matter at all. Such similarities are only natural to be found in neighbouring countries. Infact, it would be weird if we didnt have any similarities at all, since that is not how the world works. They are found between the French and Italian, Germans and English, Chinese and Japanese as well.

As for the differences, I stated that they are genealogically different, but you missed that again. The fact that we are ethnically (proved by the Harappa DNA Project, link given above by Kaptaan), linguistically (explained in detail by me in an earlier comment, refer to it), culturally (Punjabi/Pashtun/Sindhi/Baloch culture vs Bihari/Bengalee/Tamil/Marathi culture) and, which was the entire point of the article, historically (united for only 80 years under Buddhist Ashoka and later 500 or so under foreign Mughal/Turkic rule and 98 under British - different civilizations and kingdoms, already explained in excruciating detail in earlier, comments please read them) different than Indians still holds.