Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[Armstrong]

One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)

From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.

Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?

If I may !

Please quote a single example from our decades long relationship with China where anything close to the proverbial 'sticks & carrots' tactics were used by the Chinese when dealing with Pakistan ?

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

If I may !

Please quote a single example from our decades long relationship with China where anything close to the proverbial 'sticks & carrots' tactics were used by the Chinese when dealing with Pakistan ?

I am not arguing. I am asking a question.

 

[Armstrong]

I am not arguing. I am asking a question.

Yaraa so was I !

China doesn't do that with Pakistan !

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Yaraa so was I !

China doesn't do that with Pakistan !

Maybe they never had to do it. From the POV of china, it will depend on how important J10B is to them.

 

[TaimiKhan]

One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)

From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.

Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?

I believe it was Pakistan which had shown interest in J-10 and no the other way around, so don't think they will be forcing us to buy it. Had that been the case they would have not gone with us with the JF-17 and rather from the start pushed us to buy the J-10. As per insider details the Chinese are offering the J-10B to Pakistan at something close to 40M$, which is not we are ready to buy at. Had they wanted us to buy, they would have offered it at a lower cost so that J-10B has chances of success as an export product.

As far as my analysis goes and by looking at the joint Chinese-Pak marketing collaboration with respect to FC-1 / JF-17, they know that for the Chinese to make J-10B an export success would be very difficult as of now as its an expensive aircraft and as of now and in foreseeable future there is no one who would like to have J-10B especially when there is American, French, Swiss, European fighter aircraft programs. When J-10B becomes a true class fighter with its own engine, it will have to fight its competitors and the buyers would be rich ones and not the low or middle income level buyers those who don't have funds to buy a 40-50M$ fighter jet.

That is where JF-17 will come with a 20-25M$ price tag for buyers who wish to replace their old Mig-21s, F-5s, Mirage kind of fighter jets, with something which is 4th gen atleast. And that is where Chinese will win with hundreds of sale orders and keeping those countries on its side.

FC-1/JF-17 targets those countries who can not go for a 40-50M$ jet, but can buy a 15-25M$ price tag jet.

J-10B with PAF buying or not, will be opted by those countries who can buy pricey jets. But for that to have its own mature jet engine is very necessary.

Also, there is no clear indication that CAF (PLAAF) has not decided to induct FC-1. FC-1 prototype getting tested with Chinese weapon systems on the same airfield where J-20 & J-10B are being tested gives some other indication.

 

[fatman17]

One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)

From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.

Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?

the oher argument is that if PAF opts for J-10B, it will hinder exports of JFT.

 

[jackyy]

i think pakistanis will surely gets their pilots trained on j-10's coz i heard that there is treaty of supplying planes b/w china and pakistan so if they cant purchase it but atleast gets their pilots trained on it so that in case of conflict they can get additional force multiplier

 

[araz]

internet reports....
it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.

As I was SAYING!!!!!!!!!!. I still think there is a possibility of getting FC20 depending on the capabilities on offer and the US response to our request. Question for the Wise one!!!Is there a request for AMRAMC7/D +AIM9X on the cards as well?
PAF has always had plans and infrastructure to support upto 100/110 F16s. The extra Bl 52s may be a sign of "You aint getting naught till you order some new babies" and support from the Aid may have been assured which makes the platter too delicious to ignore.
Araz

the oher argument is that if PAF opts for J-10B, it will hinder exports of JFT.

Sir
There might be more under the table than one cares to show. However this claim would need to be verified and to my humble intellect sounds far fetched. The word engine keeps striking melancholic chords for some reason.
Araz

 

[Major Sam]

As I was SAYING!!!!!!!!!!. I still think there is a possibility of getting J20 depending on the capabilities on offer and the US response to our request. Question for the Wise one!!!Is there a request for AMRAMC7/D +AIM9X on the cards as well?
PAF has always had plans and infrastructure to support upto 100/110 F16s. The extra Bl 52s may be a sign of "You aint getting naught till you order some new babies" and support from the Aid may have been assured which makes the platter too delicious to ignore.
Araz

Well in My POV, its right time for PAF if they are serious for F-16 to get from USA. as they can use USA forces withdraw from Afg as a Trump card to get more assistance and equipment of their choice. as you can see recently USA sent CSF money to pakistan. Now also our relations becomes better for example the way they gave immunity to ISI in US court. They need us as we need them too. so its bargain time now.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s.

Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.

 

[Mani2020]

may be because jf-17 will use similar weapons as j-10 so PAF have changed their decision in favor of some 5th generation aircraft from china...even if in small numbers...the focus might be to foucs on jf-17 as of now and induct as many f-16s as they can to make up numbers for any future threat till the 5th generation aircraft is available and then use those funds to acquire those aircrafts

As it has been said China's low cost 5th generation aircraft if focused for exports and so far being a major buyer of Chinese weapons who else can be benefited more than PAF

 

[araz]

M

Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s.

Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.

The problem is one of economy and of fulfilment of roles. The Hi-lo axis needs to be maintained but the question is how to do that.With US you are having your last Tango in any case and the next generation will have to be chinese. I cant say for sure but the PAF would like the chinese engines to mature a bit more beforeyou put all your eggs in that basket. Ao what economical choice do we have?I dont thi k you need to be a rocket scientist to figure thisone out. F16s remain your first choice for obvious reasons. so the next question is why have we been harping the J10 tune for such a long time. The answer may well be that PAF will maneouvre one against the other to get the besf possible outcome for itself. If we get the 40 odd planes from US at a decent price we can move on and concentrate on JFT , make it better and with the third block most of our needs are met till 2020. If however the USA is not playing ball we may have to setup new infrastructure but can still get J10 in 2015-17 as if it was always planned. .There maybe other permutations regarding chinese help with later iterations of JFT S where there might be some reluctance on the part of our friends. This malaise might need some strategic maneouvering to overcome. There is a lot to be said but perhaps notthe right platform

 

[Luftwaffe]

may be because jf-17 will use similar weapons as j-10 so PAF have changed their decision in favor of some 5th generation aircraft from china...even if in small numbers...the focus might be to foucs on jf-17 as of now and induct as many f-16s as they can to make up numbers for any future threat till the 5th generation aircraft is available and then use those funds to acquire those aircrafts

As it has been said China's low cost 5th generation aircraft if focused for exports and so far being a major buyer of Chinese weapons who else can be benefited more than PAF

My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready close to next decade and that to not up to required performance levels and reliability hell they are fooling around telling us about WS-10/13 but no information on performance atleast Americans do admit and release information even regarding F-22 oxygen system US released certain information, I don't know why China won't release information perhaps everything is messed up.

so the next question is why have we been harping the J10 tune for such a long time.

Good question and should be put forward to PAF who are those insiders advocating J-10.
I believe first preference should be to develop JF-17 to its fullest potential and perhaps you are right maybe 18-20 more F-16s and as a Hi combination instead of J-10s which are still behind Blk 52.

 

[Mani2020]

My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready close to next decade and that to not up to required performance levels and reliability hell they are fooling around telling us about WS-10/13 but no information on performance atleast Americans do admit and release information even regarding F-22 oxygen system US released certain information, I don't know why China won't release information perhaps everything is messed up.

But again we would have an option of third party engine, as China will be using russian engines in case its own engine doesnot come up at par ...with china importing bulk of engines and russian earning $$ the later will have no problem ...similar to rd-93 russia is more than willing to provide even an upgraded version .....

Another option is the shenyang using its own engines on j-11s and j-15s so may be they can come up with a variant with more thrust for a twin engine stealth fighter

 

[araz]

My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready



Good question and should be put forward to PAF who are those insiders advocating J-10.
I believe first preference should be to develop JF-17 to its fullest potential and perhaps you are right maybe 18-20 more F-16s and as a Hi combination instead of J-10s which are still behind Blk 52.

What is possible now may not have been possible a couple of yrs ago and as I said before how much will is there to motivateour chines