No, but they do suffice.
So that the PAF isnt that upset about letting the J-10 go for now.
Agreed - but I would suggest that this just buys PAF some time and reduces the urgency of a J-10B type, does not do away with the need altogether.
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No, but they do suffice.
So that the PAF isnt that upset about letting the J-10 go for now.
J-10A is a heavier class fighter, more expensive to buy and operate - does not realy fit with what PAF wanted from the JF-17. On the contrary, despite meagre resources and limits on who will supply PAF has shown exceptional initiative to get itself where it is now.
Thats like saying why did U.S. bother to make F-16A/B --- why didn't they just make the C/D. It is normal to upgrade in blocks in line with a maturing platform - nothing to do with management. Regardless - that's better discussed on JF-17 thread.
Has the U.S. learnt from their 'mistake' of making F-16A/B first and only then investing in F-16C/D or are they also still 'incompetent people' not able to do anything 'progressive' or pro active??
Sorry mani for the ignorance, but wasn't j10 touted to be better then f16 block 52, if am not wrong Dodnt the paf official state the f16 will not be the most advance plane in its inventory.
How has this changed?.
Tac,
Are you going to take stupidity as your 'hallmark'---what does my post has to do with what the u s has done with F 16 A/B. Kid---I am talking about the procurement history of the PAF in general--- the last 30 plus years and all you can think of is the JF 17---.
That post was meant for Luftwaffe---he knows what I am talking about---it was not meant for you---because you donot have the ability of conscious and reasonable thinking---and neither you have put any effort into learning on your own.
Kid---as a pakistani---your knowledge is newspaper / magazine / media based----as is most other paks---I understand the tragedy that is forced upon you---lack of libraries---lack of books to learn from---I feel pity for your generation and the coming one as well and also the past by gone ones as well---.
It is a tragedy that your only stand is the media based information that you have learnt about---it is like going to a war with cracked engine blocks---gun barrels that are bent and shells that are empty of explosives---just like the biased and empty media bluster and hype.
No disrespect to you - but you are quite right - I do not understand your point. The jf-17 was designed to be a cheap as possible and as cutting edge as possible. I do not see what has changed. First JF-17's came in 2007 as block 1 and we are yet to see the first block 2. And frankly what we are expecting in block 2 is not very fantastical in terms of upgrade. Just because it is being upgraded in blocks does not mean that someone has now suddenly decided it should match a J-10B or F-16C/D. The block upgrades are a normal feature of almost every fighter you can think of - J-10A to J-10B, F-16 block 15,30,40,52,60, Mirage 2000 to Mirage 2000-5/8 etc etc etc. This is a normal process as a platform matures and does not mean that all these countries were incompetant because they weren't smart enough to develop the later models first.
Also worth remembering that all this talk about JF-17 being upgraded soooooo much that there will no longer be any need for a J-10B type is nothing more than speculation by members on forums like this and should be seen in that context. The last official word from PAF was that there remained a requirement for a J-10 class fighter and that PAF's 'contract' for the J-10 with China was 'intact' and that the type would be aquired around the 2014-15 timeframe after required improvements to the type had been made.
I agree that Pakistan will have better JF-17's with each block - but this was expected from the outset. In my opinion these improvements are not designed to compensate for not buying the J-10.
New Recruit
Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.
Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.
Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.
You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)While some points may be valid, what you seem to ignore is that the purchase of the J-10B is not conjecture or assumption but published reports through interviews given throughout the past five years.
If the J-10 did have that much love by the PAF then it..and not the J-11 would be going up in numbers. But that is clearly not the case. The aircraft does have potential put at this point has met its cap in the PLAAF as well.
Now for the JF-17, the export issue is not from Pakistan or China.. its from the PAF refusing to sign export orders unless its own are met.. which means customers have been turned away twice due to the limited production lines.
CATIC has unequivocally stated, that it can deliver a J-10B derivative to Pakistan in the next year provided a contract is signed.. and that is where your contention of soft loans comes in. Pakistan does not want to take anymore loans(which are available in the next 24 hours if we wish).
This is not from a fanboy but someone who has worked in the industry and has contacts.. someone whose hours of work has gone into trying to make some cheap Chinese hardware work as reliable as our standards demand it.
Somebody who was sick and tired of having to go through prototypes that wont even start up even after calling up Mr Ling and Hu on email to explain that his bloody chipsets keep frying themselves out... so they can suck it up and we would rather use the Turkish or US systems since at least they turn on as predicted and not keep blowing so-called high quality soldering and IC's now and then.
Which is why throughout the workplace Chinese Electronic equipment is considered Junk because you have to call them up every other month to make sure they meet quality standards.
It would probably shock people the number of F-6 and F-7 crashes not revealed by the PAF due to those darn things falling out of the sky every now and then in the early 90's.
SO thank you very much for your friendship.. but remain at that level... because your government, Military Industry owe their enlightenment on the J-10 to us.. since we consider you greater friends than the US to let you peek into their stuff illegally so you can reverse engineer it to make up for your general obsolescence in manufacturing concepts.
Its Pakistan you have to thank for actually teaching your mass producing arses a thing or two about quality..
As for the Qing, the issue was always about money and production capacity.. your government is a lot more accepting of us than you think.
Get down from the pedestal you have set for yourself, because in your effort to admonish Indians.. you are behaving like their trolls.
You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)
Please take time to read my last 3-4 posts you are going in the opposite direction to whatever I am saying.
We are speaking of J-10s and all the costs and Years to come not pop corn machine that is replaced every now and then BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B. by 2020+ would be damn time for Twin Engine your neighbor is growing unlike PAF, you need heavy capabilities if not quantity; JFT, F-16 and in Future J-31 or any other comparable can help you provided WILL & CASH.
TAC, what would be the price tag when BLK III is under construction or available would it be cheap....No eventually it might be as much as $30M.