Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib,

Thank you for your post----. The pakistani Blk 52 with its BVR package is more potent than any aircraft that the chinese have as of now in their inventory---.

There is no denial of research performed on the stealth design and money spent on R&D----but once it came out on the public forum---it was not an impossible task for nations with a solid engineering base to come up with a copy----.

Orangzaib---in your emotional out burst you carried your self a bit too far---you are an intelligent poster---but guess what---the fruit does not fall too far from the tree---one can never run away from their shadow---.

Ai8!!!! The F-16's B-52 weapons package is superior to the newer generation R-77 and about three different versions of long range BVR's that China possesses along with Su-30....that can detect the F-16 on a foggy day from about 145 KM's??? I leave that up to you. I have no doubt in the jamming and avionics QUALITY part of the deal that the US is far superior. But to say that the SU-30 with its long range radar, tvc engines and about three different long range to mid range BVR's....it's superior to the Pakistani F-16's B-52 is a far fetched. The AMRAAMS given to Pakistan are three generations before the current one. And their range is also somewhat limited when compared to the latest R-77 and other Russian BVR's. Just remember that. The USAF F-16's B-52's WILL ALWAYS be superior to what the Chinese have. Not the Pakistani ones. They are a dumb down version if you will.

Second, the Stealth issue. Russia has been manufacturing good jets, technology and avionics for over five decades now (starting from Mig 21). So.....a country with such a massive industry base and talent....is spending billions in researching on Stealth now.....they should already have one don't you think??? The Stealth jets have been around since 1980's,,,,and trust me, Russia would make a counter to anything American if they can. They've always had, whether or not it was needed. It's part of their national security policy. So, it is NOT that easy for even countries with GREAT industrial - engineering base. I don't see a stealth jet coming out of Europe....you are going to tell me that the French wouldn't want a stealth jet out in the market?? Or the Italians or Germans, etc? Any one....any takers please? I didn't think so!

Third part: Emotional outburst: I am sorry. Did I scare you off by yelling at ya? Did I call you names? Ask for your address so we could pall-wall together? No right? No offense but you live in the US I think, the phrases starting from "My Man" refer to a friendly, casual conversational style. Not emotional outburst or ticked off. And my posts aren't fruits that they have to fall from the tree....they are here online JK.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.

J-17 have find any serious player yet in market.

 

[airomerix]

Ai8!!!! The F-16's B-52 weapons package is superior to the newer generation R-77 and about three different versions of long range BVR's that China possesses along with Su-30....that can detect the F-16 on a foggy day from about 145 KM's??? I leave that up to you. I have no doubt in the jamming and avionics QUALITY part of the deal that the US is far superior. But to say that the SU-30 with its long range radar, tvc engines and about three different long range to mid range BVR's....it's superior to the Pakistani F-16's B-52 is a far fetched. The AMRAAMS given to Pakistan are three generations before the current one. And their range is also somewhat limited when compared to the latest R-77 and other Russian BVR's. Just remember that. The USAF F-16's B-52's WILL ALWAYS be superior to what the Chinese have. Not the Pakistani ones. They are a dumb down version if you will.

AIM-120C-5 is not the three generations old. If we compare it with the operational AMRAAM then only the C7 version is being operated by 'few' other airforces. The current weapon for the F-15C in USAF is the C5 version which is its main interceptor responsible for the protection of NORAD. The ANG wing also has the C5 as the standard missile on to the F-16Cs. Apart from couple of NATO airforces no one has C7 in their inventory. All the major NATO forces and other US allies are using the C5 as their primary AAM.

The C8 version however is STILL under development. But on paper it is definitely very promising.

Second, the Stealth issue. Russia has been manufacturing good jets, technology and avionics for over five decades now (starting from Mig 21). So.....a country with such a massive industry base and talent....is spending billions in researching on Stealth now.....they should already have one don't you think??? The Stealth jets have been around since 1980's,,,,and trust me, Russia would make a counter to anything American if they can. They've always had, whether or not it was needed. It's part of their national security policy. So, it is NOT that easy for even countries with GREAT industrial - engineering base. I don't see a stealth jet coming out of Europe....you are going to tell me that the French wouldn't want a stealth jet out in the market?? Or the Italians or Germans, etc? Any one....any takers please? I didn't think so!
.

Agreed. But the major difference between Russians and Americans lies in the operational reliability or in simpler words 'quality'. For example the F-16s require the first overhauling of their engines after 8000 hours mark. Where as the RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians. The Russians like Indians have always sought their priority to quantity over quality. I remember reading a report which told that a certain country has refused to take delivery of Mig-29s from Russia over quality concerns after they were inspected at the base. Now how ironic is that?

 

[帅的一匹]

PAF has a saying about the quality of Fighter made in China.

 

[Viper0011.]

AIM-120C-5 is not the three generations old. If we compare it with the operational AMRAAM then only the C7 version is being operated by 'few' other airforces. The current weapon for the F-15C in USAF is the C5 version which is its main interceptor responsible for the protection of NORAD. The ANG wing also has the C5 as the standard missile on to the F-16Cs. Apart from couple of NATO airforces no one has C7 in their inventory. All the major NATO forces and other US allies are using the C5 as their primary AAM.

The C8 version however is STILL under development. But on paper it is definitely very promising.



Agreed. But the major difference between Russians and Americans lies in the operational reliability or in simpler words 'quality'. For example the F-16s require the first overhauling of their engines after 8000 hours mark. Where as the RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians. The Russians like Indians have always sought their priority to quantity over quality. I remember reading a report which told that a certain country has refused to take delivery of Mig-29s from Russia over quality concerns after they were inspected at the base. Now how ironic is that?

On the first one, NORAD is pretty much internal US deference around its surroundings. The reason you may see C5 is because no one around us has quality BVR weapons or even want a conflict with us (unless you take Canada which is far from being hostile).
On the second paragraph, we are both saying the same thing. American 'Process Engineering' (not metallurgy as it requires process engineering for the end product's quality) is second after the Japanese in general technologies like cars, bulbs, phones, etc. BUT it is THE NUMBER ONE in the military hardware. That's always been the forte of the American military industrial complex. We do military very well and better than anyone. Thus, the jets, the engines, the avionics are cutting edge, high performance, durable and reliable. And that was my point, having Industry base doesn't produce top notch stealth jets. You need a lot more to it, and the process management part ensures strict quality measures. (and yes, I am aware of the Oxygen issue that happened with the Raptor, I thought I'd mention that before someone can go ape-shet and discredit everything I've written by mentioning that).

 

[airomerix]

On the first one, NORAD is pretty much internal US deference around its surroundings. The reason you may see C5 is because no one around us has quality BVR weapons or even want a conflict with us (unless you take Canada which is far from being hostile).
On the second paragraph, we are both saying the same thing. American 'Process Engineering' (not metallurgy as it requires process engineering for the end product's quality) is second after the Japanese in general technologies like cars, bulbs, phones, etc. BUT it is THE NUMBER ONE in the military hardware. That's always been the forte of the American military industrial complex. We do military very well and better than anyone. Thus, the jets, the engines, the avionics are cutting edge, high performance, durable and reliable. And that was my point, having Industry base doesn't produce top notch stealth jets. You need a lot more to it, and the process management part ensures strict quality measures. (and yes, I am aware of the Oxygen issue that happened with the Raptor, I thought I'd mention that before someone can go ape-shet and discredit everything I've written by mentioning that).

Totally agreed.

That Oxygen scandle still cannot be quoted. No one can even match the capabilities of F-15E and the Super Honret apart from Germans i suppose (the Typhoon) so the problem which raptor is facing is similar to "Grapes are sour".

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians.

new Rd33mk serious has a service life of 4000 hrs.

 

[airomerix]

new Rd33mk serious has a service life of 4000 hrs.

No idea about it. But if that is true then Russians are moviing in right direction. The engines of the Mig 19s were to be overhauled just after 600 hours. Thus this achievement is remarkable.

 

[TAC]

Hi,

No---that is not the case---the chinese generals are begining to learn to be honest with their capabilities and abilities---so to keep the politicians and general public in check---unlike their pakistani counter parts---who are living on a lie all the time---living on make beliefs.

So you believe that anyone saying anything positive about the J-10B is lieing because they are on CIA's payroll but anyone saying anything negative is speaking the gospell truth?? Sounds to me like you are one living a lie and living on make beliefs.

With regard to your off topic derogatory comments about Pakistanis in general - I can also make general half baked derogitory comments about Americans - but thats not realy what this thread is for.

 

[MastanKhan]

Third part: Emotional outburst: I am sorry. Did I scare you off by yelling at ya? Did I call you names? Ask for your address so we could pall-wall together? No right? No offense but you live in the US I think, the phrases starting from "My Man" refer to a friendly, casual conversational style. Not emotional outburst or ticked off. And my posts aren't fruits that they have to fall from the tree....they are here online JK.

Senor,

If you read my post again---I only talked about the EXO SKELETON---once you see the outside---the body structure---it can be designed---not a monumental task---I never talked about the innards except that they are the most important and diffficult part of the problem---that is where china lacks the technology.

You decided to take it on your own any which way---.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.

Hi, J-11B would have been an excellent platform, but you know what chinese have deals with russians even with WS-10 or any other chinese engine it isn't available to Pakistan so there you have the Answer the platform is not availble for sales due to russians.

PAF simply has no money beyond procuring 150 JFTs what to talk of squadrons of aircraft supplemented by abc and xyz western and eastern platforms. Reality is PAF has no money. Money was available since 2008 but PAF remained "ach bacha" and kept quiet and kept looking at government spending lavishly appointing OGRA and other ministries eating away billions of rupees and an astounding 7 billion rupees daily corruption. I Think regardless if people disagree I would blame PAF for not making noise in the face of over-whelming Threat on the eastern and western border an losing of older fleet. I have not an iota of doubt under pressure government would have provided PAF with enough money to go for platform of choice in number, you just need to make a noise that is what indians, americans and chinese have been doing.

 

[Armstrong]

Senor,

If you read my post again---I only talked about the EXO SKELETON---once you see the outside---the body structure---it can be designed---not a monumental task---I never talked about the innards except that they are the most important and diffficult part of the problem---that is where china lacks the technology.

You decided to take it on your own any which way---.

Senor Khan ! *Christ that sounds strange*

Don't you think you're underestimating the amount of expertise that are required to even draw up structural designs of a 5th Generation airframe on paper never mind actually building one that can fly, apparently, seamlessly ?

Granted China may not be able to develop the 'innards' as you call them, with anything close to the proficiency or the performance that their American counterparts can but surely giving an F-16 Block 52 (or even its latter generations) a mark above whatever the J-20 & the J-31 carries would be a disservice to the tag '5th Generation Aircraft' ?

 

[fatman17]

internet reports....
it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.

 

[MastanKhan]

Senor Khan ! *Christ that sounds strange*

Don't you think you're underestimating the amount of expertise that are required to even draw up structural designs of a 5th Generation airframe on paper never mind actually building one that can fly, apparently, seamlessly ?

Granted China may not be able to develop the 'innards' as you call them, with anything close to the proficiency or the performance that their American counterparts can but surely giving an F-16 Block 52 (or even its latter generations) a mark above whatever the J-20 & the J-31 carries would be a disservice to the tag '5th Generation Aircraft' ?

Hi,

First of all---we are just looking at the pictures / videos of the air craft---. Would it be appropriate to say that a 10---15 years time period to have operational aircraft available.

China has that much expertise and infra structure to manufacture and design the exo skeleton---but to make it do things like the F22---that will require ages.

Looking at the cost and up keep and maintenance of the F 22---it seems like that a similiar plane in any other air force might break the bank of that nation.

I do not think that china has the capability to duplicate F 22---the only way it can survive is to have a better detection system for a stealth type of aircraft and have better missile defence and better air to air missile and best of all---don't go to war with the u s---simple as that---.

Stealth technology sounds intriguing---but it is not viable for an average nation

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

internet reports....
it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.

One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)

From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.

Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?