Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[TAC]

Dude I ask this because I read Pshamim's post in the JF-17 thread :

You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:

1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
8.Increase the take off weight.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2H1TShYIb

I understand and agree that the JF-17 has alot of room for further development but remember that PAF wants the JF-17 to be as cutting edge as possible while keeping costs to a minimum so that they can bulk up PAF numbers with the type. My guess is those advancements will be preffered which have limited impact on cost. The role of the J-10 in PAF is totaly different - lower numbers but to be the sharp tip of the sword. In my opinion this is one of the reasons why advancements like AESA, which there is no sign of on the JF-17 at this stage are already flying on the J-10B. Former PAF ACM specificaly stated that PAF was keen on the J-10 due to its superior range and weopons load - but cutting edge capability enhancements - including AESA had to be in place before PAF would buy. I believe this was stated before the J-10B emerged.
Also when we discuss potential for upgrade and its importance - we need to keep in mind our requirements. If indeed J-10B comes to PAF with capable AESA, inflight refueling, advanced / updated counter measures, advanced avionics, IRST, what more upgrades will PAF need over the next 10 years other than ofcoarse continued avionics / weapons enhancements?

 

[SQ8]

Most chinese posters here have claimed on multiple occasions that, WS10 is fully functional, accepted and better in performance (j10/j11/j15) compared to the AL31F. What the general has been conveyed seems to contradict the chinese members here.

The Mig-25's tumansky's RB-15 turbojets were able to push the aircraft up to a speed of some mach 3.2.. and were superior to the comparable Pratt and Whitney J-75 which was also tested at the same time.. and was generally better in performance.
However, while the J-75 could be run at max AB and still return to flight status after a service.. the Tumansky would literally end up melting and shredding itself to bits.

 

[帅的一匹]

WS10A will be set for the second batch of J10b by PLAAF for sure. WS10A is performing really well on J11B since 2010.

The only problem is the production rate.

With additional 10billions USD invested by the central government, WS15 is incoming. Any one pay attention the the WS10x engine on J20?

PAF will receive the first batch of J10b block2 customized type in year 2014.

 

[帅的一匹]

If it was J10A, the induction shall have happened long time ago. PAF has strict request on Radar, avionics, EWS performance.

Especially the engine. Image the J10x variant packed with WS15 engine with 16.5 ton thrust power.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say 'don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about 'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.

Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.

Hi,

I understand your desperation---I understand the desperation felt by every pakistani---I know my desperation as well---. When it comes to power positioning---every pakistani lies about their capabilities and the capabilities of the chinese---and patronizing---patronizing my ar--. If you are so conscious of being patronized then dig your head out of the sand and listen to what is being told.

Only if the chinese could win their wars by the praise endowed upon them by their pakistani brethren---theyu would not have any puny little south asian countries standing upto them.

But tell me where the chinese industrial base is----which industrial base has produced what item to be of real concern to the west---. It is the age old fear mongering at its worst---. The afg war is coming to an end--defence industry is in a quandry---it needs another enemy---otherwise those making millions would be bankrupt---.

Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---.

Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.

Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.

 

[帅的一匹]

I am not agreeing with you that Pakistan is living in desperation. At least Pakistani have china at its side. Some one just puff USA like invincible, not every one will buy it. From the nuclear weapon to DF 21d ,DF41, 095SLBM sub, J20, this list goes on. Tell me which one of this list western not concern! I wanna tell all Pakistani, live with hope and dignity. Although not everything TAC said make point, but he still live with strong patriotism and hope.

Never foresake the hope with your own motherland until everything get better.

 

[帅的一匹]

I never deny America had state of art platform like F16Block60. The question is whether they will sell this one to PAkistan as USA is turn for India nowadays. No matter how you guys denigrate the J10b, it is the best PAf could afford and get access to. We love Pakistani, hope everything will be better off in the future.

Only Pakistan get access to J10b, even granted that we deny DPRk. Only The strongest ally get the best we have. This is not only the matter of weapon, it's chinese passion toward Pakistani.

 

[帅的一匹]

One more suggestion, never believe the words from a Chinese general, he is just kiddin with you that American could sleep tight at night.

This is some Chinese way of puzzle USA.

 

[Nishan_101]

PAF wont skip J10, Gen Kiyani was requesting the russians for AF31F Engines for the same....

may be it was for F-60....

Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG.
We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .

Yeah that's true and even heard that Russian have made it to 100KN and may be chinese will copy to make WS-13 with Russian permission....
There also reports that they new Block-IIs will not arrive from China rather being made at PAC and about 100 of them like 80 Single seat and 30 dual seat along with some 35-50 dual seat for AJT role... aka training.

JF-17 Block-IIs are similar in avionics as J-10B... I am sure its manufacturing cost will be from $25-27 Million per piece...

 

[帅的一匹]

Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.

 

[fatman17]

Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.

different category of aircraft.

 

[TAC]

Hi,

I understand your desperation---I understand the desperation felt by every pakistani---I know my desperation as well---. When it comes to power positioning---every pakistani lies about their capabilities and the capabilities of the chinese---and patronizing---patronizing my ar--. If you are so conscious of being patronized then dig your head out of the sand and listen to what is being told.

Only if the chinese could win their wars by the praise endowed upon them by their pakistani brethren---theyu would not have any puny little south asian countries standing upto them.

But tell me where the chinese industrial base is----which industrial base has produced what item to be of real concern to the west---. It is the age old fear mongering at its worst---. The afg war is coming to an end--defence industry is in a quandry---it needs another enemy---otherwise those making millions would be bankrupt---.

Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---.

Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.

Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.

So is it possible that the Chinese General is misleading the US by downplaying Chinese Products in the same way that you say all independent aviation experts are only saying that latest Chinese products are on par with US fIghters as part of some global US misinformation campaign???? Or are you going to tell me that its just your mighty U.S, that can give out misinformation????
For you to say that nothing China has produced so far (including latest 5th gen types) is as good as Block 52 is a simply ridiculous statement. Nothing in the rest of your post is worthy of a reply.

WS10A will be set for the second batch of J10b by PLAAF for sure. WS10A is performing really well on J11B since 2010.

The only problem is the production rate.

With additional 10billions USD invested by the central government, WS15 is incoming. Any one pay attention the the WS10x engine on J20?

PAF will receive the first batch of J10b block2 customized type in year 2014.

Hope you are right about 2014 --- it will fall inline with the date given by former PAF ACM some years ago.

 

[Viper0011.]

Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---.

Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.

Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.

1) For PAF's B52, Yes, that would be correct that it's far superior to the current Chinese weapons (JFT, J7, J8, J-10A, SU-27, etc). BUT, this isn't true in case of the modified Su-27, SU-30's, J11's, J-10B's, J-20's and J-31..... BUT, with the exception of the SU-27 and SU-30, the rest are in testing phase. So, I think his comparison was with apples to apples....that is current inventory of single engine aircraft. You have to remember....the B52 version is now old news in a way too. F-16 is now going beyond B-70 actually.

2) Stealth aircraft.....isn't a secret and you just have to see the angles and do it????? My man, do you have any clue how many hundreds of billions went into the Stealth programs R&D? If the 'angles' were ALL it took.....the F-22 would've existing in 80's as in 80's, the US had technologically advanced aircraft (F-14, F-15, F-16's) similar to today with some exceptions. Let's not make it sound like it's easy to do. If it was THAT easy....the Chinese wouldn't be testing two J-20's a few years after the inception of the first version. They'd be mass producing that to a few hundred as it would be just basic angles and geometry they'd have to worry about right? And the Russians and the Japanese wouldn't be taking years on R&D either. Just so you know, the F-22 has a mini supercomputer in it. To perform hundreds of millions of calculations on all levels, including its Geometry and incoming Radar beams!!

3) I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.

 

[araz]

1) For PAF's B52, Yes, that would be correct that it's far superior to the current Chinese weapons (JFT, J7, J8, J-10A, SU-27, etc). BUT, this isn't true in case of the modified Su-27, SU-30's, J11's, J-10B's, J-20's and J-31..... BUT, with the exception of the SU-27 and SU-30, the rest are in testing phase. So, I think his comparison was with apples to apples....that is current inventory of single engine aircraft. You have to rememeber....the B52 version is now old news in a way too. F-16 is now going beyond B-70 actually.

2) Stealth aircraft.....isn't a secret and you just have to see the angles and do it????? My man, do you have any clue how many hundreds of billions went into the Stealth programs R&D? If the 'angles' were ALL it took.....the F-22 would've existing in 80's as in 80's, the US had technologically advanced aircraft (F-14, F-15, F-16's) similar to today with some exceptions. Let's not make it sound like it's easy to do. If it was THAT easy....the Chinese wouldn't be testing two J-20's a few years after the inception of the first version. They'd be mass producing that to a few hundred as it would be just basic angles and geometry they'd have to worry about right? And the Russians and the Japanese wouldn't be taking years on R&D either. Just so you know, the F-22 has a mini supercomputer in it. To perform hundreds of millions of calculations on all levels, including its Geometry and incoming Radar beams!!

3) I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.

Your views are not new and have been expressed by senior aviators on the forum before. The problem maybe that export of J 11 opens anothercan of worms regarding copy rights and given the ongoing restricted production of WS10s it might be prudent to wait. My own humble opinion was to acquire 2 more squadrons of F 16 bl. 40 and MLU them to achieve fleet compatibility give J10 a miss altogether and go forj31in 2018-20.If we get ou bl. 15OCUs we will have enough mrca to last till then.

 

[MastanKhan]

Orangzaib,

Thank you for your post----. The pakistani Blk 52 with its BVR package is more potent than any aircraft that the chinese have as of now in their inventory---.

There is no denial of research performed on the stealth design and money spent on R&D----but once it came out on the public forum---it was not an impossible task for nations with a solid engineering base to come up with a copy----.

Orangzaib---in your emotional out burst you carried your self a bit too far---you are an intelligent poster---but guess what---the fruit does not fall too far from the tree---one can never run away from their shadow---.

I already stated that building the innards of the aircraft are the major issue---outer physical appearnces maybe similiar---but what matters the most are the innards to compliment the exo skeleton---. Chinese are nowhere close---.

Read again kid----read again.

So is it possible that the Chinese General is misleading the US by downplaying Chinese Products in the same way that you say all independent aviation experts are only saying that latest Chinese products are on par with US fIghters as part of some global US misinformation campaign???? Or are you going to tell me that its just your mighty U.S, that can give out misinformation????
For you to say that nothing China has produced so far (including latest 5th gen types) is as good as Block 52 is a simply ridiculous statement. Nothing in the rest of your post is worthy of a reply.



Hi,

No---that is not the case---the chinese generals are begining to learn to be honest with their capabilities and abilities---so to keep the politicians and general public in check---unlike their pakistani counter parts---who are living on a lie all the time---living on make beliefs.