Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[SBD-3]

Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past.

To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.

Of course it is, but for F-22 Dogfight is a more like a doomsday scenario. F-22 is more like an air sniper, take a shot and hide for another one. Though I always acknowledge impressive chinese developments in aviation, you never know what US has up her sleeves. If you think US military development is transparant and she doesn't keep them secret, think again. To date, we dont even know the complete capabilities of F-22A which has been in service for a dacade now.

 

[Kompromat]

F22 is not the title. No more Raptor debates please.

 

[rockstarIN]

Originally Posted by mylovepakistan View Post
Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22? a Eurofighter pilot said.
and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...

so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...

anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now... .

What ever you said is correct, EF can find out the F-22 using their IRST in 40-50 kms, same case with rafale.

But what F-22 is capable of 'seeing' these EFs and Rafales much before they see F-22 and the F-22 pilot go to such a position (altitude, approach), where EFs&Rafale passive capability does not reach/search.(these capabilities are not 360 degree search off course).

I think this may be the reason why IAF asking for 360 degree coverage for FGFA.

 

[Viper0011.]

What ever you said is correct, EF can find out the F-22 using their IRST in 40-50 kms, same case with rafale.
But what F-22 is capable of 'seeing' these EFs and Rafales much before they see F-22 and the F-22 pilot go to such a position (altitude, approach), where EFs&Rafale passive capability does not reach/search.(these capabilities are not 360 degree search off course).
I think this may be the reason why IAF asking for 360 degree coverage for FGFA.

Invalid argument. 360 degree view is for situational awareness. If there is no situation (Raptor), how could there be awareness. This would help if there was an F-15 or F-16 behind FGFA.....read my post above as the answer to the same post you were responding to. You'll understand the point I was making here. Max range for BVRs used by Raptor is MUCH more than 50 KM!!

And what makes people guess Raptor is NOT combat proven...... to the Raptor's world. You'll never see any details of any missions. It may have done Cobra maneuvers at night on top of your rooftop...but it'll never come in the news... the radars can't see them. Raptors were stationed in Iraq. You guys really believe that the US is spending $ 200 million per plain to stay within the 'friendly' skies and for routine takeoff and landings....when they've sent Sentinel UAV's to spy on Iran and that's only worth a few millions vs. the cost of Raptors? What makes you think Raptor hasn't been on a night mission to penetrate Iran's air deference, or China's, or India's or Saudi Arabia's? NO ONE CAN DETECT IT = NO COMBAT MISSION

Anyway, the above's the last post on Raptor from my end. I would hate to get yelled at from a moderator. So far, I have been good. SO NO MORE Raptor talk. Just like you guys think Raptor's not combat proven, we'll act like the previous discussion didn't happen

Could someone PLEASE tell me the specs for FC-20's AESA? I am particularly interested in its scanning, tracking and locking capability with the BVRS. Thank you.

 

[fatman17]

Developments at Chengdu:

A while ago, I read about how Chengdu AC is now employing a whole new generation of engineers that learnt the entire fighter development process from J-10 project. This group of engineers has since developed JF-17 and J-10B. They are now the brains behind J-20, numerous new J-10 variants and UAV projects. I think they have also recruited foreign engineers (especially from Russia and Ukraine) that have really contributed in all the military projects. These companies are paying increasingly competitive wages to recruit capable engineers and employing modern Western design practices. 20 years ago, one would question whether or not China can actually develop a 4th generation fighter jet let alone a 5th generation fighter jet even if they received all of the necessary funding. With the experience from J-10 project, JH-7A project and indigenization of J-11 project, they now have the capability to develop modern fighter jet if given time and money. In comparison, Russia will be increasingly facing the question of whether or not it can develop modern aircraft due to a dwindling and aging engineering force from 20 years of brain drain. In the export market, Russia is still reliant on upgraded versions of flanker and fulcrum series of aircraft for most of revenues. With T-50 still years away from being available for export outside of India, Su-35 and Mig-35 are what Russia will be able to offer for its traditional markets. Once J-10 finally starts using domestic engine, China will be able to offer J-10 and JF-17 to compete against Russia in those markets. From the recent test flights, it looks J-31 will be available for export as F-60 not that far after T-50 becomes available. Until then, J-10B, future JF-17s and Chinese UAVs will be competitive against Russian exports. By the time J-31 becomes available, China will have something capable of taking serious market shares in the very lucrative fighter jet market. This has already happened to a degree in the naval export market, where the rapidly improving quality of PLAN ships have let to more capable ships available for exports. Chinese shipyards have been quite busy building smaller battle ships, FACs and OPVs for countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Thailand and African countries.

There are still many lingering questions about China’s aerospace engine industry. As we saw, J-31 made its first flight with RD-93 engines which are clearly not intended to fit the production versions of J-31. All of J-10A and JF-17 production aircraft are equipped with Russian engines. The first batch of Y-20 and H-6K will be equipped D-30KP2. However, it looks like FWS-10/A mass production has finally reached reliable stage. All of the recent batches of J-11B/S have been using FWS-10. J-15, J-15S, J-16 and J-20 prototypes have also been using FWS-10. In a recent photo, it looks like the first production J-10B may also be using FWS-10A. If that is the case, the majority of front line Chinese aircraft will soon be using Chinese engines instead of Russian ones.

Posted by Feng

is there a 'opening ' for PAF?

 

[SBD-3]

Developments at Chengdu:
However, it looks like FWS-10/A mass production has finally reached reliable stage. All of the recent batches of J-11B/S have been using FWS-10. J-15, J-15S, J-16 and J-20 prototypes have also been using FWS-10. In a recent photo, it looks like the first production J-10B may also be using FWS-10A. If that is the case, the majority of front line Chinese aircraft will soon be using Chinese engines instead of Russian ones[/U].

Posted by Feng

is there a 'opening ' for PAF?

It was clearly Al-31FN (which China had negotiated with Russia just a while ago), we may probably see WS-10A/B powered J-10B somewhere around 2015 or may be later. Even AVIC's actions (Mergers,JVs and MoUs with Industry/University) depict that engine industry is still striving for maturity which will take its due time.

 

[fatman17]

It was clearly Al-31FN (which China had negotiated with Russia just a while ago), we may probably see WS-10A/B powered J-10B somewhere around 2015 or may be later. Even AVIC's actions (Mergers,JVs and MoUs with Industry/University) depict that engine industry is still striving for maturity which will take its due time.

how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.

 

[Dazzler]

how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.

Both are different contrary to popular belief, WS-10 has its roots in CMF 256 engine core type, not in AL-XX series, thrust, FADEC, Crystal blade technology used, Mean Time Between Overhaul, all are different. Even external dimensions are different.

 

[SBD-3]

how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.

What i ment that the engine on latest J-10B prototype pictured few days ago (which is also rumored to be the first commercial model) resembles more to AL-31FN rather than WS-10X, in contrast with the claims of it using the WS-10. My point was that efforts of AVIC to defeat the limitation of high performance aviation engines are an indication that engine development programs are yet to mature. I didn't say that WS-10 is a copy of AL-31FN but keeping in view China's recent order of AL-31FNs, I expected to see the first generation of J-10Bs using AL-31FN instead of WS-10X

 

[sancho]

All I can say is...WOW. So you've called me incorrect

Not really, because it's nothing personal for me, I have just said that several of your statements were wrong no matter if you like it or not. But you are just trying to find new excuses again, what has the number of produced F22s to do with the WVR capability? You produced low numbers, because there was no threat in the last decades and it would have been a waste of money and all this has nothing to do with the earlier discussion.

Of course it is, but for F-22 Dogfight is a more like a doomsday scenario. F-22 is more like an air sniper, take a shot and hide for another one. Though I always acknowledge impressive chinese developments in aviation, you never know what US has up her sleeves. If you think US military development is transparant and she doesn't keep them secret, think again. To date, we dont even know the complete capabilities of F-22A which has been in service for a dacade now.

True, back in the 90s when it was developed. What I said is, that by 2020 we will see several other stealth fighters and in a stealth fighter vs stealth fighter cenario the US BVR combat policy won't hold their own anymore, because their edge in BVR will be gone and it will be similar to the situation now. When will an J10B for example detect an F15E and what happens if they go into an WVR combat? The stealth fighters won't be able to detect eachother at long distances, so will sooner or later enter WVR combats and in such, a J20 might offer better flight performance than an F35 for example. The US simply hopes that HMS and highly maneuverable missiles will be enough, but by then China will have the same things too. So where is the edge then?

I am sure that the US will come up with something new, they have to, my point was only because there was nothing comparable to US stealth fighters for decades, it doesn't mean that situation remains the same for all time, nor are the US the only country that are able to develop high tech weapons.
China will catch up soon and although it might not come with an impressive J10B anymore, since they put more focus on stealth fighters now, it will be interesting to see how competitive the AESA radars will be, which also tells us something about the shrinking edge of the west.

 

[sancho]

how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.

Are there any specs available of the FWS-10A?

 

[Bratva]

interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program　

Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company, Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.

?????????? ??????-10??_??_???

 

[SBD-3]

interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program　

Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company, Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.

?????????? ??????-10??_??_???

Nice title "Interview with Pakistan Air Force generals to break Pakistan will purchase F -10 rumors"

 

[帅的一匹]

Mao ze Dong once said: Emperial USA is a paper tiger. If we shoot down those F22 someday, i would like to say its quite normal. When every one superstitiously believe in one thing for stubborn , it becomes a legend. Zero casualty war is crap when you engage with china.

 

[INDIAISM]

interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program

Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company, Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.

?????????? ??????-10??_??_???

Dam Chineese and their naming problem can't they stick to one name.....sometimes i am not even able to understand which plane they are talking about.....


Jf 17,FC-1,Fierce Dragon

J10,FC-20,Vigorous Dragon, and Now F-10

MIG21{Soviet} chineese names F-7,J-7 and then its BGI,PGI...

Su27{Soviet} chineese name j11,j15 or 16 whatever and all