Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee visits Baykar UAV facility in Turkey

[GriffinsRule]

PAF f16 mlu was originally to be done at kamra, after PAF techs were to be initially trained in the u.s where the initial batch of our f16 were going through mlu. But then in came our "Islamic brother" and the mlu happened in turkey.

so much for our so called friends

Way to twist the truth

 

[Reichmarshal]

Way to twist the truth

that friend is the truth and truth is very hard to swallow.
in intl. relations there are only interests and they are held supreme above all else. it is only Pakistan where the rulers are allowed to compromise national interest for personal gains.
i can tell u a lot more that will make urs and everyone else's blood boil but then I would have to kill u all.

 

[GriffinsRule]

that friend is the truth and truth is very hard to swallow.
in intl. relations there are only interests and they are held supreme above all else. it is only Pakistan where the rulers are allowed to compromise national interest for personal gains.
i can tell u a lot more that will make urs and everyone else's blood boil but then I would have to kill u all.

I think PAF would have liked to get the MLU done at Kamra but the US would never agree to that. Turkey was a compromise. Pakistan had experienced the payment yet non-delivery of F-16s before and didn't want to be in the same situation again.
As for the first few aircraft in the US, that is normal. There are always one or two pattern aircraft that are upgraded before any fleet upgrades are done, and that is what was going on in the US.
It's not like Turks cane in and snatched a deal away from PAC Kamra.

 

[Incog_nito]

Akinci Drones are my favorite ones. The best option for Maritime Patrol and attack.
Moreover, they can prove to be best for Army too.

Akinci EV version might make it more silent.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Coming back to topic, do we have actual possibilities of turkish drones in PAF or PAA in near future ... asking if any have actual information not fanboy wishes

 

[Zarvan]

Coming back to topic, do we have actual possibilities of turkish drones in PAF or PAA in near future ... asking if any have actual information not fanboy wishes

Most likley yes. Specially Aksungur and Akinci

 

[Scorpiooo]

Most likley yes. Specially Aksungur and Akinci

Any official information you have or its you opnion

 

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

Pakistan should buy everything Turkey has.. Currently Pakistan-Turkiye have warships and submarine deals pending plus Helicopters.. Not sure If I have seen tanks somewhere?`But 4x4 laser added armored Vs addition won't hurt either plus drones from TB2 to TB3 and you can add on top of that Turkish fighter and while you add it buy also Hisar the long range version. There is also laser guns and weaponry systems. You also need fully anti-chemical suits armor for foot-soldiers for the future doctrine of warfare in 2030-2040s.

There is no need for tank purchases tho just 4'4 armored pick ups, Helicopters, jets, Defense systems, laser technology, armored suits for soldiers plus Warships and submarines..

All this purchases are excessive and Pakistan is covered for the time being very well in every place but I am the aggressive type of planner and buyer and I also think staying ahead is better then catching up. Pakistan should already modernize it's army to make it ready for 2030s long before the 2030s come and again repeat the same feat in 2040 stay atleast 10 steps ahead all the time

 

[Sinnerman108]

Pakistan in 2016: "Everything in Turkey's actually Western origin. No point in working with them on anything. And no one cares about South African stuff."

Pakistan in 2021: "Can we buy Turkish drones and Emirati-South African mini-drones?"

Honestly, what a nation. We literally could have co-developed this stuff from them and not ask this question, "can we buy?"

South africa is a very reliable partner.

 

[mdmm]

I agree with

"" Pakistan must have ANKA UAV drones and Bayraktar Tactical UAS (UAV)
as soon as possible, in a big number for its east , south and west borders.

Pakistan should buy everything Turkey has.. Currently Pakistan-Turkiye have warships and submarine deals pending plus Helicopters.. Not sure If I have seen tanks somewhere?`But 4x4 laser added armored Vs addition won't hurt either plus drones from TB2 to TB3 and you can add on top of that Turkish fighter and while you add it buy also Hisar the long range version. There is also laser guns and weaponry systems. You also need fully anti-chemical suits armor for foot-soldiers for the future doctrine of warfare in 2030-2040s.

There is no need for tank purchases tho just 4'4 armored pick ups, Helicopters, jets, Defense systems, laser technology, armored suits for soldiers plus Warships and submarines..

All this purchases are excessive and Pakistan is covered for the time being very well in every place but I am the aggressive type of planner and buyer and I also think staying ahead is better then catching up. Pakistan should already modernize it's army to make it ready for 2030s long before the 2030s come and again repeat the same feat in 2040 stay atleast 10 steps ahead all the time

 

[araz]

There is a huge problem with Pak Mil procurement and development. It is an unspoken truth that many of us avoid openly discussing given the sensitivity of this topic. But the uniformed oversight with limited institutional knowledge and poor long term planning without fiscal prudence and objectives will always stunt PK Defence industry.

Was the money there though? The defence procurements hit a snag during Zardati and Shareef time. So could that be a reason?
A

 

[JamD]

Was the money there though? The defence procurements hit a snag during Zardati and Shareef time. So could that be a reason?
A

I think this is less a matter of money and more a matter of appreciating delayed gratification. A lot of the time (not always of course) our military planners (like most of our people) look for quick solutions. Part of this has to do with the nature of the Indian threat to us. However, part of it is the failure to think long-term and take calculated risks. For example there's a lot of talk of Pakistan joining TF-X. Well, the right time to join the TF-X was many years ago if we really wanted to join the program as developer and not as a buyer with hints of producer.

These strategic decisions don't cost as much as buying 100s of J10s or 8 submarines but the issue is that they don't give you something shiny to look at for many years and are instead building your capacity. This is something that makes our planners very uncomfortable for most things.

The whole mantra of "we will only develop something if we can't absolutely buy it" is pragmatic in the short-term, but in the long term leaves as a country that compromised because of foreign dependence.

 

[araz]

I think the T129 experience would be a bucket full of icy cold water on those aspirations. I understand where you and @ bilal khan Quwa are coming from. I think the problem has been some glaring deficiencies in the Turkish acquisitions like engines and fear of embargoes affecting our offensive capbilities. The prospect of procuring appropriate armaments would have been another factor as the Western armaments might have cqused us some difficulties. We would then have to look for a hybrid solution and I do not know to what extent that would have been possible and what the viability of the project would have been for the Turks. Another aspect would have been securing loans for the platforms to be purchased. Only recently has Turkey started offering us loans. Lastly the risk element of a failed product with cost over runs and fears of projects/turning into bottomless pits might have put planners off. So I think things have not been as simple as we think
A

I think this is less a matter of money and more a matter of appreciating delayed gratification. A lot of the time (not always of course) our military planners (like most of our people) look for quick solutions. Part of this has to do with the nature of the Indian threat to us. However, part of it is the failure to think long-term and take calculated risks. For example there's a lot of talk of Pakistan joining TF-X. Well, the right time to join the TF-X was many years ago if we really wanted to join the program as developer and not as a buyer with hints of producer.

These strategic decisions don't cost as much as buying 100s of J10s or 8 submarines but the issue is that they don't give you something shiny to look at for many years and are instead building your capacity. This is something that makes our planners very uncomfortable for most things.

The whole mantra of "we will only develop something if we can't absolutely buy it" is pragmatic in the short-term, but in the long term leaves as a country that compromised because of foreign dependence.
[/QUOTE

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think the T129 experience would be a bucket full of icy cold water on those aspirations. I understand where you and @ bilal khan Quwa are coming from. I think the problem has been some glaring deficiencies in the Turkish acquisitions like engines and fear of embargoes affecting our offensive capbilities. The prospect of procuring appropriate armaments would have been another factor as the Western armaments might have cqused us some difficulties. We would then have to look for a hybrid solution and I do not know to what extent that would have been possible and what the viability of the project would have been for the Turks. Another aspect would have been securing loans for the platforms to be purchased. Only recently has Turkey started offering us loans. Lastly the risk element of a failed product with cost over runs and fears of projects/turning into bottomless pits might have put planners off. So I think things have not been as simple as we think
A

To your point, the PA shouldn't have run towards the T129 either. If our planners had a real mindset for the long-term, they would've looked at the T929 (and ironically, they might seeing how it'd use the same engines as the Mi-8/17). We are at a point where we can only get off-the-shelf products from one or two countries -- that leaves us at a critical disadvantage in terms of negotiating favourable prices and conditions. Basically, we are crossing the line where development (be it in-house or via joint-ventures) is the only solution.

The PN basically reached that point with the Sea Sultan LRMPA. The PAF is probably at that point now with the NGFA (as its ASR isn't something most countries are comfortable selling to us). The Army will likely be the last through the gate since its weapons aren't strategic force-multipliers.

Basically, I think 'force-multiplier' conventional weapons (e.g., LRMPA, NGFA, SSKs, etc) will probably require original programs, either through indigenous efforts or joint-ventures. However, I think the tanks, howitzers, APCs, IFVs and other individually low-cost equipment could be off-the-shelf. We may not need original design work for any of those, so maybe the R&D money for the al-Khalid et.al could be better spent on the force-multiplier programs.