Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Quwa]

Hi.
Thank you for your response. You are talking about 5-7 years from now. That will take us into 2020-22. I am assuming that the Bl. 3 would have reached its design brief and about to be jnducted in 2018-19. We have recently seen the influence of LRAAMs on our thinking from some bits of news that have come out just today. Now to me this is the game changer rather than the JFT. Extending my thought process I would thin that rather than having longer range fighters one would need longer ranged armaments and a stronger radar with engine modifications or failing that guidance from a secondary source. For me the cost effective option is a stronger engine higher strength/ranged AESA radar coupled with LRAAMs. It would save up on the cost of redesigning a platform when it works well and our capability for redesigning is rudimentary if at best. So in my humble opinion JFT would not have too many design modifications but will progressively work towards a longer ranged radar a higher thrust engine of similar size to maintain the radarand longer ranged weapons. As capabilities increase you may find that we might not need as many platforms as now so higher numbers maynot be maintained and technology as it becomes more complicated will also become very expensive. In those circumstances we will need to makntain our fleet in an economical manner. Lastly 2020-22 is the time we would want to take a jump on the next generation platforms so redesigning what would eventually be a 4th generation platform when we do not have experience of the next generation will not be such a good idea.
We are only just bouncing ideas so feel free to present your point of view and we can discuss further.
Regards
A

The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time.

In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.

 

[Max Pain]

That was unarguably the best start to that Air show,
all of a sudden It scared the shit outta everybody at F-9 park.

 

[araz]

The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time.

In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.

I have no doubt that the assembly line will not remain vacant post block 3 JFT. The real question is what will PAF invest in next. You have to understand that I still have serious doubts about PAFs capability to go solo after having just "participated" in the designing of JFT. The next generation of platforms are a whole different ball game and will bring with them problems which PAF is not familiar with. With 2 different platforms in the process the Chinese will possibly be unwilling to participate in a third one and the Turkish /South Koreans maybe willing but the cost might be unsavoury for the PAF. So the likelihood is PAF will go for a Chinese platform like J31 which CATIC may develop from hand me down tech transfer from the J20 project thereby saving time and money. This in my view might be more to PAFs taste rather than a newer platcorm full of its own inherent risks.
A

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I think it'd be part necessity, part feasibility and part necessity on the part of the PAF. While the sudden influx of surplus F-16C/Ds (with LESP and CCIP-like upgrades) can affordably and effectively meet the medium weight multirole fighter needs of the PAF, it seems the PAF itself is being a bit conservative with its approach to the U.S. While such F-16s would make great air defence assets, their strike capabilities wouldn't be at their maximum potential unless U.S releases JASSM, JSOW, etc. On the other hand, PAF can equip the JF-17 at will, but the maximum desired effect in any one engagement may not come about due to the JF-17's limited range and payload. Importing something like J-10B or J-31 may be too cost prohibitive if done in heavy numbets (suitable for a backbone fleet in the future).

5-7 years from now the PAF can take one of two options. It could pair up with an external vendor and develop an entirely new successor to the JF-17 and ensure, from the ground up, that this next gen fighter improves upon the JF-17 in every relevant respect. Or it can take what it has on JF-17 and develop a larger and lighter weight fighter capable of comfortably carrying more without greatly degrading performance. The 'JF-17 II' could be the next backbone fighter, but it'll depend on what route PAF takes. Personally, I'd rather they design a new jet from scratch

Do not think PAF would go after more F-16's because the delivery would take them 5-7 years hence by that time the F-16's would have ex hosted the life of MLU. Now the F-16-blk 50/52 would also be requiring MLU. PAF would be interested in 5th Gen fighter by that time.

If PAF is offered F-35's then PAF might consider them as to replace some but not in very large numbers. However if the TFX is mature enough then PAF would choose it over the F-35's.

As far as Chinese J-31's or some other is concerned would also make it in PAF as per the policy of PAF it tends to rely on various sources rather than just one. Russia might also offer the PAK-FA or PAK-MA by that time, however would that deal would be availed is to be seen once PAF has inducted Russian Aircraft.

A stealth single engine aircraft would really be interesting because that aircraft would give PAF a low cost second line of defense... Which would this be is going to be finalized once conformation is received if such an option is available form China, Russia, USA, Sweden or a Pakistani aircraft.

JF-17 would not be enhanced to a stealth aircraft but a completely new aircraft would be manufactured so the cost would really be taken into consideration.

To spice up the competition may be the Turkish single engine design might be considered but that too is too early to say if that could be possibility or not.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I think the biggest boost to the JFT performance would be a more powerful engine and use of weight saving composites. This will ensure substantial changes in the block III and beyond.

All of the above will result in increased mission load out, space for further avionics upgrades and an enhanced flight envelope. This will get the a/c to where it was designed to be a low cost, light weight potent fighting platform.

Right now the a/c is going thru its evolution and it has some ways to go before it out does, in all aspects, the planes it is replacing in the fleet today.

 

[fatman17]

The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time.

In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.

Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce.
75 J11D
100 F16
200 JTF
The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.

 

[fatman17]

J11D

 

[IrbiS]

J11D

Yes J-11D with AESA is better option than Su-35's Irbis PESA, plus we get the common weapons package shared with JF-17. Besides, Russians will surely give us degraded equipment.

 

[araz]

Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce.
75 J11D
100 F16
200 JTF
The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.

Sir.
I think there are problems with supplying a J11 series to PAF. Unless the chinese engines mature and the Russians have no objections to the sale. In the current environment both seem unlikely and hence the talk for SU35. It will have to be customised with Chinese origin software to ensure compatibility with our current systems. This maybe the main stumbling block for the deal. Either case it is early days still and a lot needs to go on before maturity. This is almost a case of counting the chickens before the eggs have hatched. However, I do have to say that the announcement of the deal so early in the process has surprised me somewhat and I still have my doubts about it inspite of PAF varifying that the approach has been made.
A

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce.
75 J11D
100 F16
200 JTF
The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.

Sir,

China was considering the SU-35 because of the new engine not because of the design. For this they calculated that the would require to purchase around 70 aircraft, unfortunately China was able to modify the existing J-11's and also develop the J-16's which use similar modification that are available to the SU-35. The Chinese also got to develop an AESA radar for these aircraft which the Russian are unable to.

The Chinese now intend to cancel the deal for which an MOU was signed... Pakistan was under pressure from the MMRCA deal and for that it was willing to purchase the J-10's but the limitation were on the structural design and engines. The Chinese offered PAF the J-10B which is an upgraded design but still the engine remained an issue.

Durring the US withdrawal from Afghanistan and OBL raid the Americans were not interested in supplying PAF with additional F-16's, hence once again the J-10 interest increased. MMRCA also went in the favor of Rafale making Russia to react. The issue was Russia came under US and Western sanctions though they were not international as the Russian used their Veto. Hence they reacted to the areas which were historically their during Crimea and Georgia. US and EU reacted to these by taking out other areas where Russia could not react quickly i.e Libya and Syria.

On Pakistan's side US was unwilling to sell the F-16 blk 50-52 and also refused to give surplus stock because they feared that PAF would develop into a force that would be really very powerful against the Indians. The Indians would increase the numbers of their Rafales and the money that could be potentially be divided between US and European countries would only go in the favor of France. Hence we can see that the Indians have reduced the numbers of Rafales and are looking to buy some other aircraft by issuing the "Made in India" slogan. The Indians also came in the limelight in Britain hence their reaction was against the EFT when the IAF issued that the SU-30 MKI's are far better then the EFT. This opened the doors for Saab Gripen and Textron Scorpion, USA also is going to sell the engines for the Tejas so a big win for the US.

Now back to Pakistan and the requirements of PAF and PN.
Pakistan Navy wanted an air arm independent from the PAF so that they can better protect from the Indian Naval threats. For this they went and selected an aircraft but a problem rose which was the progression and also the integration with PAF. PAF suggested that JF-17's should be bought by PN and it was approved by the PM. Things changed when Pakistan was able to enhance the continental shelf and increase her EEZ. It was realized the PAF Mirrage III and V are not enough so they require a more potent system. F-18's were looked upon as well as the Chinese J-11's series but the issue on availability came up with both these aircraft. The Chinese were going to cancel the SU-35's and those were now offered by the Russian. Would these come as a complete Russian aircraft or will they be with Chinese goodies is to be seen once the conformation of a contract are available. This way the Chinese would get the Engine technology as well as Pakistan would get the air power it requires and Russia the money it desperately requires.

A win win situation for all concerned.

 

[fatman17]

Sir.
I think there are problems with supplying a J11 seies to PAF. Unless the chinese engines mature and the Russians have no objections to the sale. In the current environment both seem unlikely annd hence the talk for SU35. It will have to be customised with Chinese origin software to ensure compatibility with our current systems. This maybe the main stumbling block for the deal. Either case it is early days still and a lot needs to go on before maturity. This is almost a case of counting the chickens before the eggs have hatched. Jowever I do have to say that the announcement of the deal so early in the process has surprised me somewhat and I still have my doubts about it inspite of PAF varifying that the approach has been made.
A

if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35

 

[Donatello]

if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35

What if the poor man CAN get su35?

 

[fatman17]

What if the poor man CAN get su35?

I guess we have to wait and see. shan't we.

 

[araz]

if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35

But they have an ongoing dispute with the Chinese over the right to the SU27 family. When it comes to the options of either supplying engines or supplying the base platform I am sure the russians would want to export SU35. However I fully agree that whatever the platform chosen will have input from the Chinese to integrate the local avionics and weaponry to retain commonality with the rest of the PAF fleet if at all we see one.
A

 

[nomi007]

where are turkish gift



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