Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Deino]

Even if true the chances of seeing a photo is next to nothing. We saw the photo of H4 after almost 2 decades and have still not seen a photo of R-Darter.

I know ....

 

[peagle]

It seems that everyone has been shocked by this development, but the available interpretations are missing few points.

I read this development in 3 ways.

1. Technical
Thank you guys for increasing my understand regarding this issue. We all recognise that this is not an easy step, and required considerable amount of expertise and conceptual thinking to create this match-up.
Pakistan has lots of other important programs, so PAF is not in a position to divert it’s technical or financial resources to this program, unless the intention was to derive broad benefits from this achievement.

Firstly, I suggest PAF wanted to prove to themselves what they can do, and second prove it's internal technical capabilities to the rest of the world.

2. Immediate
By developing a BVR capability on the Mirages, it adds another complexity, therefore costs of operation on the IAF towards any intended confrontation with Pakistan, possibly deter any intentions that may have been brewing. It immediately increases the potentially available BVR capable platforms for PAF. And, in the presence of Block 3, J10’s and AWACS the new capability of Mirages is very much deployable as part of a package.

3. Long term
As far as I am aware PAF does not maintain a credible reserve force, something many major forces tend to establish with time. Any of our older fighter aircraft’s are not fit as a reserve force for modern warfare. But, by developing such a capability in the Mirage, it allows the PAF to create credible reserve force even after their retirement, and with the support of other platforms, the Mirages should be able to provide a decent option for capability enhancement in a short war into the 2030’s.

PAF would not make this effort and divert resources, for something that will be out of service in a few years, it already has its hands full. This effort provides the PAF with immediate capability boost, plus a long term platform on which to fulfil the numbers game. They will only need to be active for a short war, if it came about, that’s enough to provide extra cover as part of a wider package.

I think in those 3 scenarios, this development makes a lot of sense. Plus, the enemy will always be thinking how many aircraft have been converted, which will create a constant lack of certainty in their planning.

 

[MIRauf]

I could be wrong, however questions were raised in regards to no action taken against the hostiles on the 26th, the answer that was put forward was that the CAPs were not in the immediate zone. Now, almost most here acknowledge that M-IIIs are Mach 2.0 capable ( as few others have pointed out the advantage of speed,) so in similar context a mad dash to hot zone to launch a solo SD-10 a reason / justification under similar situation ?

This will still require either buddy system to queue the SD-10 ( Block-III painting the target ) or M-IIIs with new radar ( i.e. Grifo-E ) that could peak-a-boo lets say at 75KM+ to be effective as solo.

A definite cool and shrewd move by PAF, I do have to change my opinion as I had stated in my post on this.

 

[Riz]

I wish if we can add AMRAAMs on our mirages as well French would be pissed off , wana see americans too

 

[MIRauf]

I wish if we can add AMRAAMs on our mirages as well French would be pissed off , wana see americans too

It is ok to antagonize the French 'Macron I mean' ( SD-10 should do it ) but not a good idea to do same with the US and void the T&C on F-16s and its ammo.

PS: Please no 'Sanction' word and what good they (F-16s) worth, PAF is still getting spare parts and other related services for them.

 

[TsAr]

I think if SD-10 has been mated to Mirages, this is just a technology demonstrator. Testing for something big.

 

[Deltadart]

Next we need a suitable aesa radar, and some sophisticated electronic gadgets, for offense and self protection, and our old warriors will be ready for the latest battles.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

It seems that everyone has been shocked by this development, but the available interpretations are missing few points.

I read this development in 3 ways.

1. Technical
Thank you guys for increasing my understand regarding this issue. We all recognise that this is not an easy step, and required considerable amount of expertise and conceptual thinking to create this match-up.
Pakistan has lots of other important programs, so PAF is not in a position to divert it’s technical or financial resources to this program, unless the intention was to derive broad benefits from this achievement.

Firstly, I suggest PAF wanted to prove to themselves what they can do, and second prove it's internal technical capabilities to the rest of the world.

2. Immediate
By developing a BVR capability on the Mirages, it adds another complexity, therefore costs of operation on the IAF towards any intended confrontation with Pakistan, possibly deter any intentions that may have been brewing. It immediately increases the potentially available BVR capable platforms for PAF. And, in the presence of Block 3, J10’s and AWACS the new capability of Mirages is very much deployable as part of a package.

3. Long term
As far as I am aware PAF does not maintain a credible reserve force, something many major forces tend to establish with time. Any of our older fighter aircraft’s are not fit as a reserve force for modern warfare. But, by developing such a capability in the Mirage, it allows the PAF to create credible reserve force even after their retirement, and with the support of other platforms, the Mirages should be able to provide a decent option for capability enhancement in a short war into the 2030’s.

PAF would not make this effort and divert resources, for something that will be out of service in a few years, it already has its hands full. This effort provides the PAF with immediate capability boost, plus a long term platform on which to fulfil the numbers game. They will only need to be active for a short war, if it came about, that’s enough to provide extra cover as part of a wider package.

I think in those 3 scenarios, this development makes a lot of sense. Plus, the enemy will always be thinking how many aircraft have been converted, which will create a constant lack of certainty in their planning.

In this era of the distributed air combats with secured links, EW etc., mirages maintaining a "radio silence" can be a cheap solution to put forward to fire the BVR missiles, from a relatively short distance, toward the targets picked by the assets 100s of kms away. I am pretty sure the remaing F-7s can be used for this purpose too! It's quite a "dead end" dilemma for the enemy planners....

 

[GriffinsRule]

In this era of the distributed air combats with secured links, EW etc., mirages maintaing a "radio silence" can be a cheap solution to put forward to fire the BVR missiles, from a relatively short distance, toward the targets picked by the assets 100s of kms away. I am pretty sure the remaing F-7s can be used for this purpose too! It's quite a "dead end" dilemma for the enemy planners....

That's the same approach as the IAF Mig-21s, but how effective it really is, given AEW assets in IAF, I have serious doubts of it's efficacy. PAF had not issues dealing with Mig-21 trying to sneak in.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I think if SD-10 has been mated to Mirages, this is just a technology demonstrator. Testing for something big.

I would agree with you - it is an odd decision - had they put a dual rack under the belly point with 2 x SD10's - then i would have been more convinced it was a capability upgrade - but a single one suggests it is more of a learning exercise on how to mate different systems from different vendors together and more an indication of what they are thinking about , experimenting with and learning for Project Azm.

 

[araz]

Next we need a suitable aesa radar, and some sophisticated electronic gadgets, for offense and self protection, and our old warriors will be ready for the latest battles.

Personally to my very inexpert eye, it does not make sense to have the SD10 mated to the centre belly point with the wing pylons being there. 2 SD10s on inmer wing pylons would make a lot more sense. I understand the wiring issue and I suspect (as already related by @PanzerKiel) PAF has avoided unnecessary headache. I still think this is a demonstrator and the capability is of very little use other than a last ditch attempt at giving an old tiger its teeth ( or more appropriately 1tooth) back. The dynamics of the aircraft will always mean it will be useless in a modern war arena once it has expended its solitary weapon.
My 2 paisas worth and I am still trying to understand the logic behind it.

A

 

[araz]

I could be wrong, however questions were raised in regards to no action taken against the hostiles on the 26th, the answer that was put forward was that the CAPs were not in the immediate zone. Now, almost most here acknowledge that M-IIIs are Mach 2.0 capable ( as few others have pointed out the advantage of speed,) so in similar context a mad dash to hot zone to launch a solo SD-10 a reason / justification under similar situation ?

This will still require either buddy system to queue the SD-10 ( Block-III painting the target ) or M-IIIs with new radar ( i.e. Grifo-E ) that could peak-a-boo lets say at 75KM+ to be effective as solo.

A definite cool and shrewd move by PAF, I do have to change my opinion as I had stated in my post on this.

I would humbly suggest that to throw a M3 in todays war arena dashing in at Mach 2 would not be a good idea. The only way I see this strategy being effective if the M3 was cruising on a CAP and saw enemy approaching or were vectored to a site from where the enemy was approaching. The problem is that if the platform SD10 misses its target and the platform goes into merge in WVR the Mirage will not do well.
Again my 2 paisas worth of pure arm chair General stuff trying to understand the reasons for it.
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

That's the same approach as the IAF Mig-21s, but how effective it really is, given AEW assets in IAF, I have serious doubts of it's efficacy. PAF had not issues dealing with Mig-21 trying to sneak in.

Since PAF has beaten IAF in the EW domain, I think it's doable given the Mirage carries its own EW pod for the worst-case scenerio....

 

[MIRauf]

I would humbly suggest that to throw a M3 in todays war arena dashing in at Mach 2 would not be a good idea. The only way I see this strategy being effective if the M3 was cruising on a CAP and saw enemy approaching or were vectored to a site from where the enemy was approaching. The problem is that if the platform SD10 misses its target and the platform goes into merge in WVR the Mirage will not do well.
Again my 2 paisas worth of pure arm chair General stuff trying to understand the reasons for it.
A

I understand what you are saying / conveying, thus the painting by Block-II / III with AESA and M-III bugs out after launch. Just running some hypothetical scenarios to come to sense as to why would PAF pour resources into this project, our best guesstimates is what all we have.

 

[araz]

Congratulations indeed.

Can Mirage radar guide it to its max range? It would be great if it could. We have gained a bunch more BVR fighters. It also shows that SD-10 is a good counter. Bravo.


Good points, all of them.

Imagine AESA on Mirage. Now that would be something.

I think @messiach pointed to this possibility. I think it might be a bridge too far for these birds
A