Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Trying to read in between the lines of @airomerix I think it seems a large number of Mirages will be upgraded as such an extensive upgrade for a few only would not make sense.

The only point not left clear is if the RD-93 will be integrated ala Cheetah. If so, it would be incredible as the logistics would be simplified and performance significantly enhanced, particularly range.

I don't doubt the Mirage III/5 is a great design for strike, but I still think the JF-17 will become the main attack platform, at least tactically or conventionally. Basically, it's an issue of finding/developing the right types of air-to-ground weapons for the JF-17, not much else (besides integration and testing).

The benefit of upgrading the Mirages, however, is that it would give the PAF dozens of additional strike platforms to use in addition to its multi-role assets (read: JF-17). Like, if you can have that extra firepower, why not go for it?

Personally, even if the JF-17 fully matures, and even if the NGFA can carry the strike load, I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.

 

[Armchair]

I don't doubt the Mirage III/5 is a great design for strike, but I still think the JF-17 will become the main attack platform, at least tactically or conventionally. Basically, it's an issue of finding/developing the right types of air-to-ground weapons for the JF-17, not much else (besides integration and testing).

The benefit of upgrading the Mirages, however, is that it would give the PAF dozens of additional strike platforms to use in addition to its multi-role assets (read: JF-17). Like, if you can have that extra firepower, why not go for it?

Personally, even if the JF-17 fully matures, and even if the NGFA can carry the strike load, I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.

Exactly my thoughts. Specially because PAF is outnumbered and outgunned. These Mirages cost about a million dollars or so to refurbish and update. (or so I would assume).

That is a bargain. They can perform a strike mission as good as any platform in PAF if not better. I'm just worried about the engines, I don't know how many more times they can be rebuilt.

Doubt it. Re engining an old platform is not without its problems. PAF is not going to add another 2.5 million on to a platform for limited use. Plus we do not have enough engines to hand for the switch and if we did it would be for JFT. We have seen no new orders from PAF so where will the engines come from?
However what this points to is PAF battening down to 3 platforms to use till Azm comes on line and there will be no intermediate buy .

A


However you would agree that J16 would not be exported by China.
A

It would be nice to see that, but at the same time I hope if the F-7PGs are retired, that they are handed over to PAA to use for CAS. Close air support is a clearly identified deficiency in the PA combined arms element.

 

[Armchair]

Basically, in simple terms, if Mirages are going to be around 10 more years, RD-93 makes sense. Still unlikely to happen though.

 

[The Raven]

Upgrading the Mirages makes little sense at this stage in terms of cost effectiveness and capability, there's only so much you can do with a dated design and given the age of some of the airframes. And as mentioned above, engine life is another factor. Better instead to focus on adding further capability to the JF-17.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Upgrading the Mirages makes little sense at this stage in terms of cost effectiveness and capability, there's only so much you can do with a dated design and given the age of some of the airframes. And as mentioned above, engine life is another factor. Better instead to focus on adding further capability to the JF-17.

The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.

 

[The Raven]

The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.

The H2/H4 are outdated in terms of their tech, requiring 2 aircraft to launch and guide a single weapon. The JF-17 can carry 2x REK guide bombs or 2x CM-802AKG air to ground missiles, which although has man-in-the-loop guidance, offers greater flexibility and firepower. And the RAAD has been around for some time and due for a next generation iteration, which it has. There are other stand-off weapon options for the JF-17 as well, e.g. CM-400AKG. If the Mirages are only useful in their ability to deliver H2/H4 and RAAD, that utility will diminish as these weapons become outdated and superseded by new generation stand-off weapons.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the performance of the Mirage/H2/H4 combo in operation Swift Retort. But, that doesn't remove the fact that the PAF could have done the same job at considerable less risk with the more modern stand-off weapon options it has.

 

[Dazzler]

Deltas are love... @denel

 

[Zephyrus]

The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.

they will; with time;
furthermore H4 can and will be properly integrated into the JF17 with two way datalinks Eliminating the need for a controlling the H4

 

[AMRAAM]

Deltas are love... @denel

Great video.

 

[Armchair]

controlling with a video link is only an option and it was always designed to work without being terminally guided by a video link. The video link on the 27th was for political and diplomatic reasons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The H2/H4 are outdated in terms of their tech, requiring 2 aircraft to launch and guide a single weapon. The JF-17 can carry 2x REK guide bombs or 2x CM-802AKG air to ground missiles, which although has man-in-the-loop guidance, offers greater flexibility and firepower. And the RAAD has been around for some time and due for a next generation iteration, which it has. There are other stand-off weapon options for the JF-17 as well, e.g. CM-400AKG. If the Mirages are only useful in their ability to deliver H2/H4 and RAAD, that utility will diminish as these weapons become outdated and superseded by new generation stand-off weapons.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the performance of the Mirage/H2/H4 combo in operation Swift Retort. But, that doesn't remove the fact that the PAF could have done the same job at considerable less risk with the more modern stand-off weapon options it has.

You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).

Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).

 

[JamD]

You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).

Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).

That is certainly possible. Also, I think it is no surprise that we have only started to see a lot of new weapons being integrated on the JF-17. Pre-2019 I believe China was integrating (with regards to certification on aircraft not software) weapon systems for us. We have seen many new things (thanks to new avionics integration facility and the dynamics and simulation facility) on the JF-17 this past year:
1. Unnamed extended range smart weapon (raptor 3?)
2. LGB + Aselpod
3. Durandal

For the Mirage we have developed A LOT of expertise (models, simulations) at AWC, which is one of the reasons why Mirages are our go-to testbeds for anything new (H4, A2A probes, Ra'ad).

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).

Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).

That is certainly possible. Also, I think it is no surprise that we have only started to see a lot of new weapons being integrated on the JF-17. Pre-2019 I believe China was integrating (with regards to certification on aircraft not software) weapon systems for us. We have seen many new things (thanks to new avionics integration facility and the dynamics and simulation facility) on the JF-17 this past year:
1. Unnamed extended range smart weapon (raptor 3?)
2. LGB + Aselpod
3. Durandal

For the Mirage we have developed A LOT of expertise (models, simulations) at AWC, which is one of the reasons why Mirages are our go-to testbeds for anything new (H4, A2A probes, Ra'ad).

It was tested right after 27 Feb. So can we assume it to be used on 27th Feb?

I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.

They would be expensive to maintain in a longer term

 

[JamD]

It was tested right after 27 Feb. So can we assume it to be used on 27th Feb?

No. It makes no sense because:
1. We revealed it (only sort of) after 27 Feb so we gave the Indians a nice close look at it before hand?
2. We lobbed a munition that wasn't certified yet on a sensitive mission in which if the targets had missed by a little we could've started nuclear holocaust?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

No. It makes no sense because:
1. We revealed it (only sort of) after 27 Feb so we gave the Indians a nice close look at it before hand?
2. We lobbed a munition that wasn't certified yet on a sensitive mission in which if the targets had missed by a little we could've started nuclear holocaust?

Yep. Moreover, though as a policy RSA/Denel want to sell to us, it would benefit both them and the PAF to keep these things on the DL as much as possible. Sure, there's a high likelihood of exchanges -- anyone could see the smoke -- but you wouldn't want to reveal the fire.

Finally, the ones trained and experienced with these kinds of SOW are the Mirage III/5 guys. The JF-17 folks will likely start seeing these capabilities through the JF-17B and Block-III, and that's obviously a few years down the line. I suspect some of the Mirage III/5 crew could make their way to JF-17B/Block-IIIs for this as well.

They would be expensive to maintain in a longer term

Not really. The PAF already absorbed the cost of maintaining the Mirages. The existing logistics across all those air bases, or the MRF and Atar MRO facility, or the heavy integration of those fighters in current ops.

Yes, the cost of operating the Mirages will go up with time, but it's not concerning for a force as large as the PAF. In fact, you have privately owned aggressor firms that can fly Kfirs, Mirage F-1s, etc with a fraction of the support infrastructure of the PAF. If anything, the PAF can make a little money marketing space at MRF.