Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[airomerix]

They do have a max of 5 HPs. So A2A might be severely limited . However for A2S and A2G roles they have proven their worth. I have always thought that PAF retains M3/5s for A2G roles primarily due to the SOWs which have been integrated but also the low price of the platform. With the French having stopped production PAC feels a bit more inclined to experiment with the platform as compared to the 16s where there are serious limitations as to what can be or cannot be done

Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.

As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.

Mirage 3, 5 or both?

Both

So Cheetah upgrades.

A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi Araz,

Apologies for the delayed response.

This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.

A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)

It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;

i) Primary and multifunction displays
ii) ADCs (air data computers)
iii) Navigation integration
iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
vii) Mission computers and stores management system
viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.

In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.

Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.

Any chance they'll attempt zero-houring the airframe? According to @denel the jigs for the Cheetah are still around in South Africa, so if still the case, they could build new wings, tail, etc?

 

[Maxpane]

so mirages are staying till project Azm and PAF is doing cheetah type upgrade

 

[Zulfiqar]

Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.

As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.



Both



A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.

So will this upgrade mean that the same aircraft will become multirole i.e (A2A/A2G role on same plane) or will we have two separate paths for upgrade.

As currently many mirages either carry a radar in nose or a FLIR IIRC.

 

[airomerix]

Any chance they'll attempt zero-houring the airframe? According to @denel the jigs for the Cheetah are still around in South Africa, so if still the case, they could build new wings, tail, etc?

We have our own jigs at MRF which undertake similar tasks of reinforcing the wings, rudder and. other surfaces. We have achieved significant capacity building in many areas such as we have been manufacturing glass canopies of Mirages, F-7s and JF-17s for years now.

We need expertise in the electronic aspect of the upgrade which is challenging to reverse engineer. We have absolutely no challenges with the structural integrity of the Mirages.

So will this upgrade mean that the same aircraft will become multirole i.e (A2A/A2G role on same plane) or will we have two separate paths for upgrade.

As currently many mirages either carry a radar in nose or a FLIR IIRC.

We stopped relying on Mirages for A2A after F-16s landed in early 80s It is simply not good enough now.

It still carries two sidewinders that too for self defense purposes (for the same reason why AH-1Z carries two sidewinders)

 

[Zulfiqar]

We have our own jigs at MRF which undertake similar tasks of reinforcing the wings, rudder and. other surfaces. We have achieved significant capacity building in many areas such as we have been manufacturing glass canopies of Mirages, F-7s and JF-17s for years now.

We need expertise in the electronic aspect of the upgrade which is challenging to reverse engineer. We have absolutely no challenges with the structural integrity of the Mirages.



We stopped relying on Mirages for A2A after F-16s landed in early 80s It is simply not good enough now.

It still carries two sidewinders that too for self defense purposes (for the same reason why AH-1Z carries two sidewinders)

OK thanks. One more question?

How much longer in terms of flying hours/yrs can we support mirages (speaking from structural point of view)?

 

[airomerix]

OK thanks. One more question?

How much longer in terms of flying hours/yrs can we support mirages (speaking from structural point of view)?

I dont know and this is highly classified information. But the airframes selection for upgradation is a clinical process. The upgraded frames will have the longest legs and/or service life left.

 

[The Raven]

If I recall correctly, the wings are "zeroed" during complete overhaul, I recall reading this in one of Alan Warnes' articles in Airforces Monthly magazine many years ago.

 

[Path-Finder]

A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.

more lethality the merrier.

 

[Saifullah]

Hi Araz,

Apologies for the delayed response.

This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.

A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)

It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;

i) Primary and multifunction displays
ii) ADCs (air data computers)
iii) Navigation integration
iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
vii) Mission computers and stores management system
viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.

In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.

Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.

Why go to CATIC or SA for upgradation of all the mentioned components.

1) We are manufacturing MFDs inhouse for JF, why not reuse them for Mirage as well ?
2) Why not use the ADC used in JF as well. It will be easier for upgradation, maintenance, Integration.
3), 4) and 5) All these things are being manufactured inhouse for JF17 and can be used for Mirage as well.
6) and 7) We already have a system in JF which is quite matured and systems have been integrated.

It just seems no brainer to go for anything else when you have homegrown Tech which can be used for this upgrade. It will streamline the upgradation and maintenance of platforms. It just makes no sense to go outside when you have everything available at home.

 

[mingle]

Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.

As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.



Both



A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.

Why not putt Chinese engine WS13 or RD 93 engine instead of ATAR like Israel did with Mirage 5 after putting F4 engine called Nasher

 

[airomerix]

Why go to CATIC or SA for upgradation of all the mentioned components.

1) We are manufacturing MFDs inhouse for JF, why not reuse them for Mirage as well ?
2) Why not use the ADC used in JF as well. It will be easier for upgradation, maintenance, Integration.
3), 4) and 5) All these things are being manufactured inhouse for JF17 and can be used for Mirage as well.
6) and 7) We already have a system in JF which is quite matured and systems have been integrated.

It just seems no brainer to go for anything else when you have homegrown Tech which can be used for this upgrade. It will streamline the upgradation and maintenance of platforms. It just makes no sense to go outside when you have everything available at home.

There is no such thing as 'one size fits all'. Especially with assets which are tasked with high profile missions.

JF-17s cockpit layout, components are very very different. It has a way bigger cockpit compared to a Mirage. This means even the MFDs, PFDs are of larger size and will require some sort of further development to reduce size, maintain aperature, reduce motherboard sizes whilst maintaining capacity. We are not paying for R&D for this upgrade. This is an off the shelf solution which has already been developed for different Mirage and Cheetah variants.

However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.

 

[Dazzler]

However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.

Rose Mirages are fitted with localized kj-8602A RWRs. Did APF made a new one?

 

[airomerix]

Rose Mirages are fitted with localized kj-8602A RWRs. Did APF made a new one?

New iterations are in works all the time. The KJ-8602 and A version were made in collaboration with CEIEC. By different iterations, I mean the expansion of threat library, incorporating more durable IC's, anit-jam sensors etc.

 

[Dazzler]

New iterations are in works all the time. The KJ-8602 and A version were made in collaboration with CEIEC. By different iterations, I mean the expansion of threat library, incorporating more durable IC's, anit-jam sensors etc.

Is it an improvement over kj-8602A or another system altogether?