Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[araz]

I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.

IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035). Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.

When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)

We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages modestly is probably the most prudent course of action.

We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then 30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s.

If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.

You can simply now forget about more F16s primarily as US policies are changing in the region and unless they become desperate for our help they will not give us anything. As to transfer of software from M3s to JFT. In the 30s we will be building Block 5s and the hardware going into M3s now will be obsolete.
I do however see roughly 50 mirages being retained. If we had money the J10 would possibly have stepped into this role
A

 

[denel]

We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years.

MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?

View attachment 599597

If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.

Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.

 

[FuturePAF]

Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.

Considering we are buying Egyptian Mirages just to make sure our Mirages keep flying, how many air frames do you think we could get from Denel/Atlas? Also, how much would it cost? Would Denel be willing to transfer the whole facility to Pakistan, lock stock and barrel?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.

@airomerix claims Thunders can carry RA'AD. Then what are those weapons which Thunders can't carry like Mirages?

 

[denel]

Considering we are buying Egyptian Mirages just to make sure our Mirages keep flying, how many air frames do you think we could get from Denel/Atlas? Also, how much would it cost? Would Denel be willing to transfer the whole facility to Pakistan, lock stock and barrel?

We built the jigs the time, the prints were still there; it is nothing complex; in fact when we did the cheetah, new alloy was used which was lighter and yet more tensile than the original ones.

 

[FuturePAF]

We built the jigs the time, the prints were still there; it is nothing complex; in fact when we did the cheetah, new alloy was used which was lighter and yet more tensile than the original ones.

What would it take for the Mirage Rebuild factory (financially, technically, time frame) to do the same in Pakistan? Assuming Denel was willing to sell the jigs and the prints, and contract the knowledge transfer?

Also, are any Cheetahs in good flying order left over, that Pakistan can just buy out right?

 

[denel]

What would it take for the Mirage Rebuild factory (financially, technically, time frame) to do the same in Pakistan? Assuming Denel was willing to sell the jigs and the prints, and contract the knowledge transfer?

Also, are any Cheetahs in good flying order left over, that Pakistan can just buy out right?

We sold all our cheetahs to Ecuador. The jigs wont be sold but new ones can be build. There is nothing to them - no joke.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2010-07-16/atlas-cheetah-c-fighters-ecuador

all 30 of them. They were top of the line and Ecuador is very happy with them.

 

[FuturePAF]

We sold all our cheetahs to Ecuador. The jigs wont be sold but new ones can be build. There is nothing to them - no joke.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2010-07-16/atlas-cheetah-c-fighters-ecuador

all 30 of them. They were top of the line and Ecuador is very happy with them.

Could Pakistan send its Mirages to South Africa to be evaluated and rebuilt, or is it cheaper to just build them from scratch with the new alloys as you mentioned?

 

[denel]

Could Pakistan send its Mirages to South Africa to be evaluated and rebuilt, or is it cheaper to just build them from scratch with the new alloys as you mentioned?

As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well. Those cheetah had pretty potent radar EL/M on them combined with hdms as well.

 

[FuturePAF]

As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well. Those cheetah had pretty potent radar EL/M on them combined with hdms as well.

Not sure I understand the acronyms; "As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well."

 

[Maxpane]

wonder why paf dnt get cheetah if everything is here?

 

[Talon]

Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.

Flying at even 50ft, of course no replacement for mirages.

 

[denel]

wonder why paf dnt get cheetah if everything is here?

I have no idea;

 

[air marshal]

http://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2457

 

[syed_yusuf]

pakistan should have been an early adopter of rafael from france. this one fighter could not only have helped replace mirage but also help create f-16 replacement. early 2000's pakistan could have opt for a bigger order spanning 15 years or so with local production etc.

there are lots of ifs and buts around it. but this option should have been explored.

next option was EF2000, in my opinion it is better than Rafel. and we missed the boat over there also.

now PAf is left with chasing USA for more advance F-16/ upgrade existing ones. unfortunately PAF missed opportunity on J-10 or a version of J16. well known that russia might not allow j16 out right, diplomacy could have helped asking china help to convince russia.

as of now the only hope is project azm and upgrade to JFT. might not be a bad idea but till azm get in numbers we will be always keeping balance not gaining upper hand.