Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Pakistani Fighter]

- I mentioned only the contract price as mention in the letter to US congress by Obama Administration
- Rule Out the possibility of Grant and/or US funding ....
- I never mention the mode of payment as it is not clear till to date ...

Oh ok sorry

 

[Myth_buster_1]

More like a re-engined and smaller Mirage 2000. They would have been better off just buying the production line from France in the 80's and doing what Turkey did with the F-16, or at least did a joint venture as Pakistan is doing. The Indian's couldn't swallow their pride, and want to do it all indigenously.

LCA is a product of European engineers.
This is a Swiss Piranha which is a small light weight fighter.

 

[HRK]

Oh ok sorry

no issue at all

 

[araz]

According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid

I think you have misconstrued the situation. The total package price is 950 million. Part of this was to be paid as CSF. PAA wanted to use as much of the CSF as it could acquiring the AH1Zs. But the US froze the CSF insted asking for PAA to pay the whole contract sum from ita own funds. This is where the controversy lies.
A

 

[ziaulislam]

The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.

That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.

impeachment is a drama and its over

Questision is will trump be relected?
Answer is yes unless a white male democratic candidate who black and hispanics love appear ? And i dont see that happening

 

[Dazzler]

 

[FuturePAF]

The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.

That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.

Your right; we should have worked with the South Africans but not to buy new air frames but to rebuild our own Mirages when it would have been worth it; in the mid-90s, around the time they were in active development of the cheetah to its final variants, but that was the time the Air Force at the time wanted to buy mirage 2000s and the PPP government at the time stole the money.

Consider we have an aerospace industry now, and we have an urgent need; we should still do the upgrade ourselves; especially if each older JF-17 will be getting an AESA. Their “KLJ-7” radars could be transferred over to the Mirages, and the avionics upgraded to match the JF-17, allowing a commonality if parts and weapons systems.

Trump will be out of office in 1-5 years and the US will come around to competing for influence with China in Pakistan. Giving Pakistan more F-16s may be a part of keeping Pakistan “more neutral” vis a vi China, eventually.

 

[araz]

Your right; we should have worked with the South Africans but not to buy new air frames but to rebuild our own Mirages when it would have been worth it; in the mid-90s, around the time they were in active development of the cheetah to its final variants, but that was the time the Air Force at the time wanted to buy mirage 2000s and the PPP government at the time stole the money.

Consider we have an aerospace industry now, and we have an urgent need; we should still do the upgrade ourselves; especially if each older JF-17 will be getting an AESA. Their “KLJ-7” radars could be transferred over to the Mirages, and the avionics upgraded to match the JF-17, allowing a commonality if parts and weapons systems.

Trump will be out of office in 1-5 years and the US will come around to competing for influence with China in Pakistan. Giving Pakistan more F-16s may be a part of keeping Pakistan “more neutral” vis a vi China, eventually.

No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
A

 

[ziaulislam]

No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
A

Why would we want that and we dont have mica irst to use with them anyway

May be they are better in air to ground rolw but again integeating our own weapons and that radar into our whole ecosystem will be useless cost activity too

 

[FuturePAF]

No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
A

I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.

IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035). Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.

When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)

We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages modestly is probably the most prudent course of action.

We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then 30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s.

If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.

 

[aliyusuf]

Why would we want that and we dont have mica irst to use with them anyway

But they can certainly use the Mica-EM with 80km max range ... whether France will allow such a sale, as IAF uses these missiles on their Mirage-2Ks, is moot.

 

[FuturePAF]

But they can certainly use the Mica-EM with 80km max range ... whether France will allow such a sale, as IAF uses these missiles on their Mirage-2Ks, is moot.

This is why we can study these Horus Mirages and use the basic weapons they come with, but we need to upgrade our Mirages ourselves.

 

[jupiter2007]

I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.

IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035). Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.

When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)

We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages modestly is probably the most prudent course of action.

We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then 30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s.

If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.

We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years.

MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?

If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.

 

[StormBreaker]

We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years.

MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?

View attachment 599597

If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.

That would be setting up a new production line and the costs associated with it would be big. Moulds etc

I think you have misconstrued the situation. The total package price is 950 million. Part of this was to be paid as CSF. PAA wanted to use as much of the CSF as it could acquiring the AH1Zs. But the US froze the CSF insted asking for PAA to pay the whole contract sum from ita own funds. This is where the controversy lies.
A

I think, US wants us to pay because they know that if they can pay to China and others, why ask CSF support from us.

 

[jupiter2007]

That would be setting up a new production line and the costs associated with it would be big. Moulds etc


I think, US wants us to pay because they know that if they can pay to China and others, why ask CSF support from us.

Everything has a cost associated with it.