Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[The Accountant]

Mirages are excellent for their role and will serve well into 2030
They are great assest for our nuclear arm and will carry the raad probably till both are retired
F7s though with no Bvr i am not sure what to make lf them

Mirrage also dont have any BVR. Their role is limited to strategic delivery.

For conventional delivery as soon as all precision strike weapons get integrated with thunder there will be no need of mirrage. I am sure finding a solution for strategic role by thunder must be in preparation.

Mirrages are really old crafts. They are fuel hungry, maintenance hungry and lack modern avionics. They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...

I recommend that sooner we release mirrages the better we will be able to spend our running maintenance budget.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Mirrage also dont have any BVR. Their role is limited to strategic delivery.

For conventional delivery as soon as all precision strike weapons get integrated with thunder there will be no need of mirrage. I am sure finding a solution for strategic role by thunder must be in preparation.

Mirrages are really old crafts. They are fuel hungry, maintenance hungry and lack modern avionics. They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...

I recommend that sooner we release mirrages the better we will be able to spend our running maintenance budget.

Pakistan has round about 180 M3/5 in service.

 

[Deltadart]

Wow what astute analysis! We are all smarter after reading these pearls of wisdom. You guys have plenty of work to do figuring out your outdated Bisons. Give it a rest.

Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.

I like your name,
its very adequate, delta -> Dart and it is in the mirage thread, and your DP suits it.

 

[Deltadart]

Haha. I had no idea that naming myself after a fighter plane,I love(Convair F106 Deltadart),made me a suspect of being an indian here. Way to go guys.

 

[denel]

Denel,
Can you explain why the South Africans themselves are not using these airframes and instead went and bought the Grippen?

Very simple. If you go back in history to understand.
When the Mig23s were fielded and first encounters in Angola in late 79/early 80s; SAAF immediately notified PW that we had a significant challenge on our hand. Our M3s were not capable 1:1 handling Mig-23 - only F1 was in that league. Atlas then embarked the Cheetah platform which included better radar etc. to make it 4th Gen. How this was to be a stop gap measure as we had Craver project in parallel with Lavi engagement; Lavi was to be the replacement for Cheetahs. Atlas and IAI were working jointly on Lavi - wind tunnel tests were being done at Atlas facilities as well. When they pulled Lavi out further upgrades of Cheetah were in flight and geo-politics changed as well. By 1996 new arms agreements to bring in Gripen were announced which many of us did not agree with and there was massive corruption by Zuma and his side kick Shabir. Cheetahs were still around until 2008. Agreement with Castros saw that both sides pulled out and the soviet threat had complete gone. Like M3/5; our deep strike lay with Buccaneers not M3/5 which were doing long range strikes as far as Lusaka and were tasked with the role of carrying the nuclear weapons when time came.
It is a pity, PAF could have easily procured all of the Cheetahs including entire TOT which you could have converted others too.

 

[Jammer]

Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.

Nice try again!

 

[Signalian]

They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...

Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.

Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat.

So even if its Mirage-V or JF-17 or F-16 on strike mission, it will need EW cover as well as BVR combat cover from other aircrafts. USAF plans to send EA-1Gs ahead of strike package, first to go in, last to fly out. Israelis use F-15 and F-16 together for strike mission, either of the two providing air cover for BVR combat.

There's no news at all in this regard. it was mere discussion/proposal by @denel which I agree with from what I've gathered from this forum so far that JF-17 is yet to replace the "role" of mirage.

If it actually is doing just that then yes it can very well replace mirage and all the attention should be given to JF-17.

Ra'ad ALCM - either modify Ra'ad for JF-17 or modify JF-17 for Ra'ad. That's one primary concern.

Pakistan has round about 180 M3/5 in service.

Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180.

Said by Oscar.

The JH-7B debate made it interesting due to different point of view.

Mirages are excellent for their role and will serve well into 2030
They are great assest for our nuclear arm and will carry the raad probably till both are retired
F7s though with no Bvr i am not sure what to make lf them

The date of 2030 is up to PAF.

Ideal replacement for Mirage-III/V should be F-16 itself, if in sufficient numbers, its just those local produced and foreign weaponry that wouldn't work well with F-16s. PAF starts to get new ideas when it inducts F-16 so F-16 replacing Mirage might not happen. A new acquisition maybe, like Su-35 or stealth aircraft.

F-7 P/PG have served well, filled in the numbers when needed.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180

This numbers comes out from 274 airframes which were purchased over time from various sources.

 

[The Accountant]

Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.

Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat.

By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ...
JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.

27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.

In a desperate situation you can send 2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...

 

[Signalian]

By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ...
JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.

27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.

In a desperate situation you can send 2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...

JF-17 escorting JF-17 could have been deployed in Feb also, yet PAF chose to deploy F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages. 80-100 JF-17s were available to PAF.

PAF could have used the JF-17 configuration you mentioned on 27th Feb 2019, yet PAF decided to send in non-upgraded Mirages, both III and V. The ROSE upgraded weren't deployed for this strike. PAF has 8 x AWACS? Even if 4-5 are deployed in the air during war, they should be able to cover a major portion of Pakistan's air space.

The EW suite of JF-17 Block III should be interesting.

 

[denel]

Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.

Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat.

So even if its Mirage-V or JF-17 or F-16 on strike mission, it will need EW cover as well as BVR combat cover from other aircrafts. USAF plans to send EA-1Gs ahead of strike package, first to go in, last to fly out. Israelis use F-15 and F-16 together for strike mission, either of the two providing air cover for BVR combat.


Ra'ad ALCM - either modify Ra'ad for JF-17 or modify JF-17 for Ra'ad. That's one primary concern.


Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180.


The JH-7B debate made it interesting due to different point of view.


The date of 2030 is up to PAF.

Ideal replacement for Mirage-III/V should be F-16 itself, if in sufficient numbers, its just those local produced and foreign weaponry that wouldn't work well with F-16s. PAF starts to get new ideas when it inducts F-16 so F-16 replacing Mirage might not happen. A new acquisition maybe, like Su-35 or stealth aircraft.

F-7 P/PG have served well, filled in the numbers when needed.

Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.

personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.

 

[Signalian]

Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.

personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.

Good you pointed out that JF-17 needs integration of A2G weaponry, this begs the question; where would PAF utilize its resources sensibly: Upgrading and modernizing JF-17 OR further upgrading Mirages ?

 

[Talon]

By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ...
JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.

27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.

In a desperate situation you can send 2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...

In war you might even see A-5s and Old F7Ps flying.

Sending same aircrafts in a package makes no sense.Variety of aircraft will fill the gaps created by same type of Aircrafts.E.g F16 or JF17 cant fire H weapon,JF-17 bvr isnt as good as F16s etc.

JF-17 escorting JF-17 could have been deployed in Feb also, yet PAF chose to deploy F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages. 80-100 JF-17s were available to PAF.

PAF could have used the JF-17 configuration you mentioned on 27th Feb 2019, yet PAF decided to send in non-upgraded Mirages, both III and V. The ROSE upgraded weren't deployed for this strike. PAF has 8 x AWACS? Even if 4-5 are deployed in the air during war, they should be able to cover a major portion of Pakistan's air space.

The EW suite of JF-17 Block III should be interesting.

Rose squadrons do not operate H weapon, otherwise they would have been preferred over the old jets of No. 15.

Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.

personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.

The ground clearance of JF-17 doesn't allow H weapon to be deployed on it,even on Mirage its very low and landing a Mirage with H weapon fitted to it is a tricky job.So unless there's some new version of H weapon,I dont see it being deployed on JF-17.ReK will go with JF-17 only I guess.

 

[Windjammer]

https://www.facebook.com/