Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Sine Nomine]

Yups, those are the thorns for IAF's Rafale/SU 30/M2K/Mig-29..... You said it yourself

Number game.

 

[Signalian]

Number game.

Numbers.....What are JF-17's for ?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Numbers.....What are JF-17's for ?

Let's see,we need tonhave 300 of them acting as workhorse.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I just wonder what the logic of buying the Horus M5s is in light of what you have said. RC400 was chosen for JFT which means 730 mm diameter nose cone. So how has it been placed inside M3/5s? I hope you see where I am coming from.
As a project i think it is worth a punt. However what gains does one gain in what time and what cash layout is required and will OEM create hurdles, is a question one might want an answer to in the first instance. If it is 7 HP, PD radar with a 135 km range range for 10 to 15 million dollars which is maintainable locally ie engine change plus local overhaul infrastructure available then it is definitely worth a try. At best we will get JFTBlock 2 capabilities in a Delta with its own specialized role.
A

Dear @araz I just pointed out what I think is the weakest link in this hypothetical initiative. The size of the radar matters and it could be the limiting factor in this case. All else falls in place.

If I allow myself to be greedy, I would go for incorporation of the composite-made slats with radar absorbent materials to reduce the RCS; and while doing this, explore the possibility of DSI. But then all this costs money, time, & requires resources that may be spent elsewhere for greater returns.

 

[jamal18]

Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?

Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.

Yes, this is what I find worrying. We can follow, but we can't lead. MRF by now knows as much about the mirage as Dassault, but we still can't make anything for it by ourselves. I would have thought that to make the frame and wings by ourselves would be a walk in the park. Sadly not.

 

[denel]

I disagree with you there totally. The hallmark of a NGF (5th gen) that AZM is envisioning is the LO feature. Without that, its just building a 4th gen aircraft, which we already will have in the shape of JF-17. Thing like supercruise, its ability to direct UAVs, manage the battle space for 4th gen fighters etc ... all those features can be added in as upgrades, but getting the fundamental right is the game, and that is a low observable airframe, designed so it can handle future upgrades. We already see an learning curves with the Chinese designs, and they have made mistakes in J-10 and even JF-17, for eg. both had intakes design changed, and in terms of JF-17s, the proportions are changing again. Thus the hardest part is designing the airframe right and modular enough to accommodate new technologies as well as engines etc. We can expect that jet to be in service for 30-40 years or more.



As for the Japanese, though its not related to this thread, Ill add it here to just correct the narrative. The program is not cancelled and Japan is going to be building its stealth fighter to replace their F-2s (F-16 knockoffs). The X-2 (ATD-X) was just a technology demonstrator and used to test new materials and designs. Take a look at the timelines of this jet and we can extrapolate what our program or the Turkish one for that matter will take to complete.
https://www.janes.com/article/86159/japan-prioritises-locally-developed-future-fighter

The F-3 performance requirements are to be finalized by 2020 and development to officially begin in 2021 with 2030 as a target! That is after they started with the X-2 business in 2006! AZM ETA will be 2035-2040 so plenty of time for an interim fighters (F-16s cough cough)



It has been over a decade since Atlas Cheetah was taken out of service and people retire, forget or move on to other aircraft. So the expertise might not be as widely available in the future. But again, if the idea is to manufacture a 60s-70s design, might as well go for the Mirage F-1, which was better in almost every term over the Mirage 3/5s

most of cheetah infra is still there; we still have to support all the clients who bought Cheetahs to replace their F1s.

 

[Sine Nomine]

If I allow myself to be greedy, I would go for incorporation of the composite-made slats with radar absorbent materials to reduce the RCS; and while doing this, explore the possibility of DSI. But then all this costs money, time, & requires resources that may be spent elsewhere for greater returns.

Just rebuilding new airfarmes and using new power plant would be enough.It would allow us to operate them beyond 2030,while upgarding them in long time.

 

[Quwa]

Yes, this is what I find worrying. We can follow, but we can't lead. MRF by now knows as much about the mirage as Dassault, but we still can't make anything for it by ourselves. I would have thought that to make the frame and wings by ourselves would be a walk in the park. Sadly not.

It can be a capacity limit too. The JF-17 is taking up PAC's jigs and tooling, so in this case, it might be cheaper to work with some company like Denel which already has the infrastructure in place than to frontload overhead costs on doing it at home.

 

[Deltadart]

It can be a capacity limit too. The JF-17 is taking up PAC's jigs and tooling, so in this case, it might be cheaper to work with some company like Denel which already has the infrastructure in place than to frontload overhead costs on doing it at home.

All of us are advising the PAF on the benefits of upgrading and building new mirages, but they will as usual do nothing. They will just keep praying, hoping and begging for more f16s..... And keep getting turned down and humiliated, over and over again. The enemy keeps upgrading their fleet and we are sleeping.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Since Pakistan can manufacture all parts, upgrading mirages is not a bad proposition
From what I heard in the mirage documentary, that we make close to 80-95% components for plane or even 100%

What I would suggest is to, strip out the old computer system from 90's 0r 2000's whenever the last upgrade was done and just work with Turkish Avionics company and have them fit the avionics in Mirage planes and also the computer system

a) Custom design Avionics cockpit holders
b) The actual Avionics
c) New radar for the Mirage working with other partners
d) The Weapons would work since Turkish stuff is Euro compliant


All the Analog gizmos of Mirage can be changed with just 2 Big screen as in the image below
Drastically modernizing the planes

The new Avionics system may also have support for HUD helmets
Since Turkish stuff is all made (Ready) It would just be assembly and installation and testing

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

I came across a video on our Mirages, a bit rudimentary but still worth having a peep!

 

[denel]

Since Pakistan can manufacture all parts, upgrading mirages is not a bad proposition
From what I heard in the mirage documentary, that we make close to 80-95% components for plane or even 100%

What I would suggest is to, strip out the old computer system from 90's 0r 2000's whenever the last upgrade was done and just work with Turkish Avionics company and have them fit the avionics in Mirage planes and also the computer system

a) Custom design Avionics cockpit holders
b) The actual Avionics
c) New radar for the Mirage working with other partners
d) The Weapons would work since Turkish stuff is Euro compliant


All the Analog gizmos of Mirage can be changed with just 2 Big screen as in the image below
Drastically modernizing the planes

The new Avionics system may also have support for HUD helmets
Since Turkish stuff is all made (Ready) It would just be assembly and installation and testing

Let us start with the airframe/wings/engine first.

All of us are advising the PAF on the benefits of upgrading and building new mirages, but they will as usual do nothing. They will just keep praying, hoping and begging for more f16s..... And keep getting turned down and humiliated, over and over again. The enemy keeps upgrading their fleet and we are sleeping.

That is exactly my point; not sure what happened to mastaankhan?

 

[monitor]

It depends on what you're trying to build.

Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive.

The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc.

Plus, the PAF will probably not take LO seriously in the beginning either.

By the time Pakistan get their hands on a fifth generation fighter the advantages of LO will start decreasing and more emphasis will be on other feature .

 

[Deltadart]

@denel
We know that PAF left on its own will do nothing about mirages. So how about Atlas or it's successor come up with a proposal to further upgrade the cheetah, and if PAF is interested in a joint venture or something, and willing to procure few hundred birds , and then build a prototype and see where it takes us? What do you think?

 

[denel]

@denel
We know that PAF left on its own will do nothing about mirages. So how about Atlas or it's successor come up with a proposal to further upgrade the cheetah, and if PAF is interested in a joint venture or something, and willing to procure few hundred birds , and then build a prototype and see where it takes us? What do you think?

Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.