Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

If France cannot supply parts then there is no problem. But if we are getting parts via a valid contract then it depends upon what is in the contract.

Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.

You do understand that Denel has been a professional in this industry and worked on Pak Mirages? Should we take his word for it, or yours?

Arrogance is something that breaks down everything. It breaks down communication and it stops innovation and problem solving.

Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.

I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.

I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.

Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.

 

[Deltadart]

Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.


Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.

I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.

I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.

Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.

Brilliant.....thanks for sharing this insight.

 

[Armchair]

Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.

Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.

 

[Danishwer]

Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.


Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.

I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.

I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.

Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.


Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.

I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.

I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.

Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.

At the end of the production by the original OEM you become the OEM provided you love and care for the product as if it’s your own....

 

[denel]

At the end of the production by the original OEM you become the OEM provided you love and care for the product as if it’s your own....

Indeed, it becomes a multiplier for other countries to get theirs upgraded at your facilities; the potential becomes enormous.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.

Thanks for sharing this update with us.

I can tell you from the horse's mouth that PAF is extremely happy with the H2/H4's cued up with the Mirage. PAF has tested these beauties in the most intense environments, and they have managed to operate beautifully and hit their targets with a bullseye. PAF has immense trust in these systems, and are literally the leading strike package solutions in PAF's arsenal.

 

[denel]

Thanks for sharing this update with us.

I can tell you from the horse's mouth that PAF is extremely happy with the H2/H4's cued up with the Mirage. PAF has tested these beauties in the most intense environments, and they have managed to operate beautifully and hit their targets with a bullseye. PAF has immense trust in these systems, and are literally the leading strike package solutions in PAF's arsenal.

there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments. Same core technology is the backbone of zalink comms systems. It was a very simple idea yet foolproof.
It brings smile to me when i get such feedback; work put in 30+yrs back which was then built upon for other applications has paid big dividends for the clients.

Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.

Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.

corn flakes? you must be joking; this is exactly the situation in Egypt where parallel industries are in play and that is where their leadership goes when retired from EA. Absolutely corruption to its core.

 

[Quwa]

Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.

Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.

These entities are viewed like armories that make weapons, not product development organizations.

With Project Azm (and the jury is still out on it to be fair) the PAF created a new entity separate of PAC to spearhead the design work (AvDI and AvRID), ostensibly under engineers and not pencil pushers. But they clearly didn't want to do it under PAC.

You'd basically have to rework all of these entities to turn them into product designers.

 

[messiach]

Core module?
H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.

there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments.

 

[Armchair]

Core module?
H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.

Ma'am, I think Denel meant that the data-link between the launching aircraft and the missile is such that it cannot be broken. I'm guessing it uses multiple redundant encription that hops frequencies (a wild guess).

corn flakes? you must be joking;

I kid you not. The cornflakes they make aren't bad though, I grew up eating it

These entities are viewed like armories that make weapons, not product development organizations.

With Project Azm (and the jury is still out on it to be fair) the PAF created a new entity separate of PAC to spearhead the design work (AvDI and AvRID), ostensibly under engineers and not pencil pushers. But they clearly didn't want to do it under PAC.

You'd basically have to rework all of these entities to turn them into product designers.

If that is true, and PAF has truly allowed engineers and scientists to get to the management, its a revolution, because this is where we have been stuck for the last 60 years. With the exception of the nuclear program (where again we allowed the scientists and engineers to take the lead).

 

[denel]

Ma'am, I think Denel meant that the data-link between the launching aircraft and the missile is such that it cannot be broken. I'm guessing it uses multiple redundant encription that hops frequencies (a wild guess).



I kid you not. The cornflakes they make aren't bad though, I grew up eating it



If that is true, and PAF has truly allowed engineers and scientists to get to the management, its a revolution, because this is where we have been stuck for the last 60 years. With the exception of the nuclear program (where again we allowed the scientists and engineers to take the lead).

you got the basics correct.

 

[MastanKhan]

Core module?
H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.

Hi,

So is this a Launch & Forget type of weapon---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

So is this a Launch & Forget type of weapon---.

there are multiple modes on it.

 

[syed_yusuf]

what happen to egyptian mirages?