Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[python-000]

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

We are known for Surface attacks, ASV, Air Combat, Maritime Security and everything that comes in your mind.
~(Haiders)

 

[araz]

This is all possible with basic HMS; but there was a decision not to use them because these birds were to be for strike only. However your point on PGs - as they are to be replaced with JF17s; - as I have said over and over again - not having HMD/S on JF-17 was a folly and it is hoped it is there for Blk3. With AESA + HMDS - this bird has reached its target of completion in overall functionality.

@denel.
I think the problem was not the will but the availability. Some systems were not available to us and others were perhaps not considered for various reasons. We have had HMCS on the 16s but no HOBS as 9X was either denied or deemed not appropriate to ask for after initial enquiries. I am now told HMCS is part of block 3 and will possibly be inducted fleet wise. The utility is undoubtedly there BUT I suspect we needed to have BVR capability first so we acquired what was easily acquired and then went for the next stage. Better late than never.
A

 

[denel]

@denel.
I think the problem was not the will but the availability. Some systems were not available to us and others were perhaps not considered for various reasons. We have had HMCS on the 16s but no HOBS as 9X was either denied or deemed not appropriate to ask for after initial enquiries. I am now told HMCS is part of block 3 and will possibly be inducted fleet wise. The utility is undoubtedly there BUT I suspect we needed to have BVR capability first so we acquired what was easily acquired and then went for the next stage. Better late than never.
A

Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.

 

[ghazi52]

PAF Dassault Mirage-VEF ROSE II.

© Rana Suhaib Photography

 

[araz]

Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.

I dont know why it was not chosen. The problem always is you never hear the true story from both sides. Perhaps the Chinesewanted to offer a combo deal of Pl10e plus local HMCS and sweetened it as they often do with eother local manufacturing of missiles or HMCS . Perhaps they created hurdles so it became difficult to integrate things together. The answer simply is we on the open forum do not know. Ido know that the South African HMCS has been ready for some time. Why did we simply go off all things from SA all of a sudden? Again did the Guptas create hurdles or was there a security risk?
A

 

[denel]

I dont know why it was not chosen. The problem always is you never hear the true story from both sides. Perhaps the Chinesewanted to offer a combo deal of Pl10e plus local HMCS and sweetened it as they often do with eother local manufacturing of missiles or HMCS . Perhaps they created hurdles so it became difficult to integrate things together. The answer simply is we on the open forum do not know. Ido know that the South African HMCS has been ready for some time. Why did we simply go off all things from SA all of a sudden? Again did the Guptas create hurdles or was there a security risk?
A

No Araz.

That time, gupta parasites were still in their flea infested flat in Fordsburg.

HMS especially on M3/F1/Cheetah has been our pride as we were the first to buid and use it. There would have been no issues. The only issue I know was there was French pressure not to engage with Atlas at the time; plus a lot of packets french can give to make sure they are heard. IFR - there was no choice so that had to be gotten from Atlas; next wings - Zero wings were also obtained from Atlas in benoni; similarly comms sets on the M's were also had from Grinel.

My guess is the french convinced them to focus on strike missions only and ignore the HMS and they did not have it - the most likely excuse was it would be imcompatible - that is all BS, Sagem knew it well that it was independent. It was in my opinion a folly because it would have given you a first hand experience in this. Plus of course once you know it; you will make it as a standard for any future requirements.

 

[Deltadart]

Denel, unfortunately we don't have the caliber of independent think tanks that can make recommendations to the PAF, like they do in the US. So things like this happen a lot, without any expert over sight on such matters from outside of the paf.

 

[denel]

Denel, unfortunately we don't have the caliber of independent think tanks that can make recommendations to the PAF, like they do in the US. So things like this happen a lot, without any expert over sight on such matters from outside of the paf.

As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) rightfully has pointed out in his last 3 posts on his website; the issues are very self evident.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.

Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA) could work on a new HMD/S. Even if we consider the Archer HMS out-of-date, HOSA's expertise in the area is strong enough to carry forward towards a new solution similar to the JHMCS-2 or Thales Cobra.

The PAF recently said that 'Pakistani and Chinese compnaies' are working on an HMD/S for the Block-3. It's possible that a private sector firm (e.g., Shibli) pulled a 'UAE' and bought out or contracted South African optronics expertise. The way the PAF made it sound, it looks like we'll develop and own IP for the HMD/S.

 

[denel]

Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA) could work on a new HMD/S. Even if we consider the Archer HMS out-of-date, HOSA's expertise in the area is strong enough to carry forward towards a new solution similar to the JHMCS-2 or Thales Cobra.

The PAF recently said that 'Pakistani and Chinese compnaies' are working on an HMD/S for the Block-3. It's possible that a private sector firm (e.g., Shibli) pulled a 'UAE' and bought out or contracted South African optronics expertise. The way the PAF made it sound, it looks like we'll develop and own IP for the HMD/S.

Correct. It is very much doable and specific towards JF-17s only; whilst there is a challenge with Amscor/Denel corp future, there are internal rumours that Paramount may take over many components and very well to that point as well. For profit enterprises do far better than State ones.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Correct. It is very much doable and specific towards JF-17s only; whilst there is a challenge with Amscor/Denel corp future, there are internal rumours that Paramount may take over many components and very well to that point as well. For profit enterprises do far better than State ones.

Part of Pakistan's problem is that the SOEs are lumbering, so it's easy to miss things (e.g., HMD/S) when no one abroad is willing to supply it.

This is why private sector involvement is key; the PAF could've said all the way back in 2005 (when it had originally listed HMD/S as a requirement for the Block-II), "we need an HMD/S" and the private sector could have figured it out.

I'm not saying the private sector would've necessarily made it, but by moving fast, they could've linked with other firms to jointly design and produce it.

Thankfully, someone within the establishment is becoming a champion for leasing out surplus SOE capacity to the private sector. The fact that the conversation has been on the table in Pakistan is a big thing.

In terms of optronics specifically, I think Shibli (a private sector company) is holding the fort. It seems they're the top supplier for the armed forces (albeit with co-produced and/or licensed variants of foreign products).

If they're given more of a free reign, I can see Shibli collaborating with HOSA, Aselsan and others to design and develop original solutions. HMD/S is undoubtedly a key area and Pakistan wouldn't be the only one to benefit from it as the Turks also have a need for one for their next-gen fighter.

 

[denel]

Part of Pakistan's problem is that the SOEs are lumbering, so it's easy to miss things (e.g., HMD/S) when no one abroad is willing to supply it.

This is why private sector involvement is key; the PAF could've said all the way back in 2005 (when it had originally listed HMD/S as a requirement for the Block-II), "we need an HMD/S" and the private sector could have figured it out.

I'm not saying the private sector would've necessarily made it, but by moving fast, they could've linked with other firms to jointly design and produce it.

Thankfully, someone within the establishment is becoming a champion for leasing out surplus SOE capacity to the private sector. The fact that the conversation has been on the table in Pakistan is a big thing.

In terms of optronics specifically, I think Shibli (a private sector company) is holding the fort. It seems they're the top supplier for the armed forces (albeit with co-produced and/or licensed variants of foreign products).

If they're given more of a free reign, I can see Shibli collaborating with HOSA, Aselsan and others to design and develop original solutions. HMD/S is undoubtedly a key area and Pakistan wouldn't be the only one to benefit from it as the Turks also have a need for one for their next-gen fighter.

Private enterprise is key; allows for nurturing new ideas. The challenge which I have forseen always is weariness to have Chinese involvement because they steal IP and cannot be held accountable. Strict guidances have to be set. in any such future ventures.

 

[Deltadart]

It becomes a pleasure to take part in the discussions, not to mention a learning experience when @denel, @araz, and @bilal khan are part of any discussion here. Thx guys.

 

[denel]

Is composite being used on these Mirages now? do we know!

none what so ever.