Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[muse]

who in their right mind would develop an infrastructure building a produce with limited use by one vendor where you may or maynot get the deal even after spending billions of $. You would be nuts to do so. You really need to think this one out carefully . on balance once you have established infrastructure including the steel and composite materials building base which is a matter where even developed countries like Japan and Korea struggle, then you can think of private enterprises building a support industry but not in the state our infrastructure is.Araz

I think you may have misunderstood - the product already has a buyer it's the armed forces, to start with. I appreciate that you like to be through, but it seems to me that you may have misunderstood. Pak Propulsion (proposed entity) would manufacture propulsion units for the Air Force, Army and Navy -- obviously it will not start out manufacturing entirely new designed and manufactured from scratch units, but rather propulsion units the armed forces are using at present

 

[Gentelman]

What did you mean by that? I have never heard of a Chinese version of RD-93... Just can't make things up my friend...



Agreed, and you are absolutely correct... Stop investing on the old pieces of Craps and start investing those funds in the jf-17 and make it more capable to compete against the much advanced 4th gen fighters....

WS-13A is equvilant or better than RD-33……
awwww not again I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era…… PAF is not further upgrading them or investing on them……
Rose 4 upgrade was under consideration but this plan was stopped and rejected in 2009……
Its airframe can't be better any farther thats why PAF is doing so much hardwork on JFT to make it mature enough to fit for night fighting & nuclear delivery role……

 

[muse]

I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era…… :

Yes, that's good - How many squadrons of JFT till now? What do think it means that work appears to have slowed down considerably and the Finance minister has to be seen publicly promising more funds for PAF?

I certainly don't like the idea of keeping ships that may not be airwrthy and risking lives of PAF pilots, but it seems to me that we are in a bind

 

[araz]

I think you may have misunderstood - the product already has a buyer it's the armed forces, to start with. I appreciate that you like to be through, but it seems to me that you may have misunderstood. Pak Propulsion (proposed entity) would manufacture propulsion units for the Air Force, Army and Navy -- obviously it will not start out manufacturing entirely new designed and manufactured from scratch units, but rather propulsion units the armed forces are using at present

You need to characterize and define these propulsion units .In support of my argument how many providers there are for UAVs and how many have done business with the forces.When you talk of propulsion units you have to understand the various typesof planeswhich will be operated by the forces and their individual requirements. Then there is the usual "difficulties in getting through the door". Then this unit will be evaluated and if found deficient rejected or referred back for improvements. Do you realize what the costs i volved and the times involved are? A rough guesstimate of 15-20 yrs and 10-15 billion $would probably be just about enough. So tell me as a businessman would you like to invest? Theirin lies the problem of private ventures and the reason why most of these enterprises are in US or the west. Rest assured no one including the chinese are going to handover the secrets of turbine blade manufacturing.
Araz

 

[muse]

You need to characterize and define these propulsion units .In support of my argument how many providers there are for UAVs and how many have done business with the forces.When you talk of propulsion units you have to understand the various typesof planeswhich will be operated by the forces and their individual requirements

I take it you mean in Pakistan? to the best of my knowledge there are at least 4 - and I don't believe any of these have done any business with the armed forces - which I think speaks volumes about the mindset of the Pakistani armed forces.

Lets see, at least 500 engines for the JFT - Army employs some 3000 tanks, and many more thousand trucks, Propulsion for Pakistani Navy and naval production - In your opinion, these are not enough to justfy such a capability?

 

[Bamboo Castle]

WS-13A is equvilant or better than RD-33……
awwww not again I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era…… PAF is not further upgrading them or investing on them……
Rose 4 upgrade was under consideration but this plan was stopped and rejected in 2009……
Its airframe can't be better any farther thats why PAF is doing so much hardwork on JFT to make it mature enough to fit for night fighting & nuclear delivery role……

Please don't get me wrong, but, Mirage upgrade can be very fruitful for your politicians pocket. I've seen this it in BD. BAF bought 16 (stop-gap as they say, though, I wonder which gap they were filling) F-7BGI (based on 1960 designed Mig-21F13) which derives from the latest variant of Chengdu J-7G. They bought these when the country needed at least 2 squadrons (32-36) of Mig-29SMT or Su-30MK. Wasting the taxpayers money they have gone for F-7BGI which by the way, can not compete against any 4th generation fighter even after heavy upgrades (same goes with F-7PG, Mirage-3/5).

So, comes the question: Why? BAF bought those, well to make the politicians reach. I believe, same is in your case as well. To get even more reach they might do the Rose4 as well.

 

[araz]

I take it you mean in Pakistan? to the best of my knowledge there are at least 4 - and I don't believe any of these have done any business with the armed forces - which I think speaks volumes about the mindset of the Pakistani armed forces.

Lets see, at least 500 engines for the JFT - Army employs some 3000 tanks, and many more thousand trucks, Propulsion for Pakistani Navy and naval production - In your opinion, these are not enough to justfy such a capability?

You are still not getting my point. You cant gather apples and oranges together. Ajet engine is a totally different ball Game as compared to a sessna engine or a tank engine or the turbine for a Ship.I dont think tank engines od truck enfines are that huge a problem and we can safely negotiate eith Ukraine to build a powerplant which can then be the base of MRAPSandAPCs. Ship turbines again you will never need enough to justify building them in house. That leaves us with JFT engines. You are really trying to crack a wallnut on a monkeys head here if you think anyone will even look at your face much less talk to you about building a turbofan engine . This is cutting edge tech andyou will need to work out your own solution.It is not without reason that the chinese are struggling here . the turbine is the engine core and without an engine core there is no engine. Even before you start talking you need to have at least a couple of specialized steel manufacturing plant each of which will probably set you back 5-10billion $.So muse saheb at the moment you are not going to engage any businessman in your venture.
Araz

 

[SQ8]

you are not going to engage any businessman in your venture.
Araz

Both the Net Present Value and the IRR of this investment dont look good.

 

[araz]

Oscar.
Thankyou for your support kind Sir.
Araz

 

[araz]

Oscar.
Thankyou for your support kind Sir.
Araz

 

[Gentelman]

Please don't get me wrong, but, Mirage upgrade can be very fruitful for your politicians pocket. I've seen this it in BD. BAF bought 16 (stop-gap as they say, though, I wonder which gap they were filling) F-7BGI (based on 1960 designed Mig-21F13) which derives from the latest variant of Chengdu J-7G. They bought these when the country needed at least 2 squadrons (32-36) of Mig-29SMT or Su-30MK. Wasting the taxpayers money they have gone for F-7BGI which by the way, can not compete against any 4th generation fighter even after heavy upgrades (same goes with F-7PG, Mirage-3/5).

So, comes the question: Why? BAF bought those, well to make the politicians reach. I believe, same is in your case as well. To get even more reach they might do the Rose4 as well.

its upgrades are done at home with all facilities at home so very little chances of politicians having commission……
but nothing is impossible……
well btw its uogrades and PAF mairage program was past…

 

[Nishan_101]

I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).

I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).

I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.

Some of it is very optimistic and a bit iffy.

300+ JF-17 is a bit overkill, if we can get it above 200 that would be quite something. Can you imagine? 200 BVR capable aircraft, sanction free, spares, weapons + integration and any upgrades we need.

J-31, lets not jump the gun. First it's got to fly, then PAF has got get the funds, these next gen fighters are not cheap from any aspect, sky high flyaway costs and sky high maintenance costs. Also, nothing official from PAF regarding this matter. So leave it be for now.

And replacing F-16's after 2020? F-16's aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
They'll fly beyond 2030 me thinks.

 

[Nishan_101]

I agree with you but not 100%, we are hoping some better results.

 

[Bamboo Castle]

I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).

I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.

Wait a second,, did you say 300+ JF-17 and 200 J-31.... Lets consider the price of the 500 AC only, and still we are looking at a $15 bl budget. You will need another $5 bl to create the environment for those 500 AC. You also have to consider the operating cost and the weapons and ammunition...

At least you are talking about a $20bl procurement.. You have that... do you... I guess no.. otherwise you would not think of buying all those 2nd hand junks in you air force...