Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[ziaulislam]

Still not quite ready to take on enemy fighters. Even after rose 1, 2 & 3 they are still no match against JF-17 or HAL tejas. Su-27, Su-30, Mig-29, F-16 are out of the question. However, they can prove good against J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21. Now, the problem is, countries are withdrawing those (J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21) from service. So who will the upgraded aircraft fight against??

In my opinion the Rose 1, 2 & 3 was a total waste of your tax payers valuable money and is a way your politicians got rich. With $150ml in 1992 buying power your govt. could have ordered for 20 brand new F-16/Mirage 2000 or 24 brand new Mig-29.

at 150 million at best u would have got 3 or 4 f-16s plus we were on embargo anyway in 90s

 

[BATMAN]

Why can't Atar 9 be replaced by Chinese version of Rd93? What design changes would be necessary and could these be done by Kamra?

closest ever replacement for RD-93 is 'AI-222-25'

ГП "Ивченко-Прогресс". Авиационный турбореактивный двухконтурный двигатель АИ-222-25

 

[muse]

For starters, Atar 9C is about 400kgs heavier than the RD 33, not to mention the internal plumbing regarding the two different engine designs.

Why would you put a turbojet, that is heavier and uses more fuel providing less thrust, when you can have a more robust RD33/93?

Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93

 

[BATMAN]

Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93

There is no Chinese version of RD-93

 

[Donatello]

Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93

My bad, i misunderstood that maybe you meant why not put the Atar 9 in JF-17.

My Apologies please.

Well, it was already hard negotiating for 150 RD33 engines from the Russians. So i am not sure if they would be willing to sell more. Plus re-engineering the Mirage with RD33 might not be very cost effective.

 

[Gentelman]

we just need to retire them……
PAF is just working to mature JFT platform so that it can take Mairages place……

 

[Dazzler]

I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..

New set of wings were imported from southern Africa about 15 pairs to be retrofitted on Rose mirages. Some Aussie and PAF mirages were modified with these wings.

 

[Bamboo Castle]

at 150 million at best u would have got 3 or 4 f-16s plus we were on embargo anyway in 90s

Who told you to buy F-16 only??? Go for Mig-29 or Su-27 or something else...

 

[Bamboo Castle]

Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93

What did you mean by that? I have never heard of a Chinese version of RD-93... Just can't make things up my friend...

we just need to retire them……
PAF is just working to mature JFT platform so that it can take Mairages place……

Agreed, and you are absolutely correct... Stop investing on the old pieces of Craps and start investing those funds in the jf-17 and make it more capable to compete against the much advanced 4th gen fighters....

 

[ziaulislam]

Who told you to buy F-16 only??? Go for Mig-29 or Su-27 or something else...

mig 29 was not really offered even if it was available u would required 1-2 billion dollars for any meaning full number.
its not just buying aircrafts, you need weapons , air to air missles, maintenance and training crew and pilots. interoperablity with other aircrafts.. etc
why do you think so much time is being taken on jf-17 induction? training!

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93

each rd93 costs 3 million dollars..just that alone is huge investment when the number of years on the airframe isnt that much a maximum of 5 years more i guess
besides we have too many atar 9 in spares ..
not worth the cost

 

[muse]

Atar series are a development of WWII German BMW engines -- I wonder if we can use them to build intellectual and technical know how, so that one day a manufacturing unit (Pak Propulsion) may create propulsion units for all fields of endeavor

 

[araz]

Muse.
Engine building is the most difficult part of the plane and even China is struggling. The turbine blades are the things that make or break an engine and we neither have the metallurgical knowhow nor the research funds to go into research. For the .oment it isexpedient to tow along with china and establish our rebuilding facilities. Next in line would be licence manufacturing of minor components so the engines become cost effective. The last stage would be licenced manufacuring of full engines.At costant progress we should be there in 15-20yrs and a couple of billion dollars. The benfit to our industry would be immense.
Araz

 

[muse]

Yes, but the tech part is not the difficult part at all - it's the finance part -- and for that we have to move away from this all govt approach - not only is it inefficient, but we are exceptionally poor at it. The other major challenge is that of mindset, in my experience, Pakistanis admire, and I mean deeply admire the know how and capability of US defense giants - we should emulate and refine that set up for our purposes --- I wish we could come up with a proposal that at the heart of which is to make black money white, with the proviso that the funds are parked in public-private defense manufacturing units (with no govt management and minority number of board chairs) producing not only reasonable profits but also serving as a priming pump for the industrialization of Pakistani manufacturing.

 

[araz]

Yes, but the tech part is not the difficult part at all - it's the finance part -- and for that we have to move away from this all govt approach - not only is it inefficient, but we are exceptionally poor at it. The other major challenge is that of mindset, in my experience, Pakistanis admire, and I mean deeply admire the know how and capability of US defense giants - we should emulate and refine that set up for our purposes --- I wish we could come up with a proposal that at the heart of which is to make black money white, with the proviso that the funds are parked in public-private defense manufacturing units (with no govt management and minority number of board chairs) producing not only reasonable profits but also serving as a priming pump for the industrialization of Pakistani manufacturing.

Please elaborate who in their right mind would develop an infrastructure building a produce with limited use by one vendor where you may or maynot get the deal even after spending billions of $. You would be nuts to do so. You really need to think this one out carefully . on balance once you have established infrastructure including the steel and composite materials building base which is a matter where even developed countries like Japan and Korea struggle, then you can think of private enterprises building a support industry but not in the state our infrastructure is.
Araz