Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.

Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).

True. Still the option to pursue M2K remains viable.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.

Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).

Hi,

Earthquake should have never been the reason to stop the purchase---. That money got looted and plundered---.

Funds for weapons must never be spent on anything else---.

Stopping that sale---Paf made pakistan to commit suicide on the battle front against India---.

Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.

So---basically---Paf intentionally or out of stupidity sabotaged the military standing of pakistan---.

Paf had assumed that the threat of war was gone and peace was about to be made---and thus the money spent on the F16's would be a wastage---.

Bottom line---WARRIORS must think of their weapons only and nothing else---.

The issue is with the Drama that the Paf created after 9/11---checking this aircraft ( grippen )---checking that aircraft ( rafale )---sticking nose here----sticking nose there---.

The focus should have been on BLK52---and after 9/11 when the alliance was created---the demand made to the US for the aircraft right away---.

What is amazing is that on the day of 9/11---the pakistani F16's were barely able to fly---Paf had no resource---but the day they became available or the options opened up---there was no urgency shown---no push or pull to get the aircraft on a fastrak---.

Anyway----so yeah---if the Jh7A did not pas the muster---how come the A5 pass the muster---. Who cleared the A5 for purchase---.

There is too much deceit in Paf's explanation of events---.

 

[FuturePAF]

You must remember the time frame and materials used with the original airframes; there is only so much you can do before it goes. Cheetah had newer airframes with newer material alloys to start with making it a zero hour.


It is not about style but fitment to purpose. It does the job plus it is with spey engines.
mastan is correct; they are stuck in a hole and cannot think out of the box away from a Mirage or f-16; it is a blessing that someone had the foresight to pursue jf-17 but i can only imagine what that person would have been through heckling and nightmare by an inbred mafia who never want to change status quo because it does not feed their corrupt pockets.


Tornado is a good option but remember maintenance on a swingwing is pretty hefty. British aircraft need a lot of hand holding and entire new workstream need to be opened.

Question comes whether it can carry all the strategic options and will there be any components that require TIT's signoff. Again sanctions need to be kept in mind.


correction. Mach 2 speeds is not possible with full loaded.

Sanctions are definitely a concern, which is why a healthy amount of spares and weapons would have to be bought as part of the deal. A through evaluation would have to be made as to the viability of a Tornado force for the PAF, but on the surface level, the Tornado is ideal per capabilities while potentially being affordable on the front end. Long term it may face the whims of the European and American defense establishments, but the PAF has managed to operate the F-16 over these past 30 years. Worst case, we cannibalize the Tornados and operate them like the Iranians operate their Tomcats. If we can get a decent platform at an affordable price, and in only a few years time, it would fulfill our need and allow us to retire the mirages.

On a tonnage basis, 81 Tornados which can carry 9000 kg each, would match the entire PAF Mirage 3/5 fleet of 180 aircraft which can carry 4000 kg each. For reference, each JF-17 can carry a little over 3600 kg. So it would not be a stretch to retire the entire Mirage Fleet if we can acquire the Tornados.

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Tornado-IDS_a000460001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mirage-III_a000733001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/FC-1_a000302001.aspx

As far as carrying special munitions, if the F-16s can be modified to carry them, then the Tornado can be adapted one way or another to carry them.

The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.

Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.

Source: http://www.deagel.com/

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,
Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.

Indeed they do believe in conjectures!!! Hopefully, PAF will go on generating more of them at a regular interval...

 

[MastanKhan]

The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.

Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.

Source: http://www.deagel.com/

Hi,

Please kindly give me credit for bring this up almost a 1 1/2 decade ago when every pakistani fanboy was clueless to what integration and getting a pilot used to an aircraft means---. I am the originator of this information to the pakistanis who believed that their pilot could jump into an aircraft and run circles against the enemy---.

Next----

The british equipment is one of the worst when it comes to quality and longevity---I don't think that you knew that either---.

3rd thing---if worked out properly---the chinese equipment could be had on a soft loan / forgiven loan---.

Next---the aesa radar that you could get for the JH7A would be a massive machine---.

Basically---there is no other aircraft in the industry---that pakistan can get what the JH7A can do---.

A missile truck JH7A with about 8 PL15 riding point alongwith 3 JH7A's with 2 CM400AKG's each or with 2 ALCM Baburs each---hooked up with a massive 1500TR module aesa radar and with the support of the awacs flying low over the ocean---popping up at the last minute and un-leashing all the ALCM's at the target from a safer distance and then turning tail---.

Any interceptors would face the LR PL15's---.

What india fears the most is a long range heavy strike aircraft in the Paf's arsenal that can fly low and target indian coastal belt and naval flotilla---.

If Paf gets the JH7A's---indian navy would get a heart attack---. The strength and power of its large naval frigates would be diminished---. They would be at the mercy of the LR AShM missiles---and the ship's missiles would not reach out to the pakistan aircraft---.

 

[Signalian]

Sanctions are definitely a concern, which is why a healthy amount of spares and weapons would have to be bought as part of the deal. A through evaluation would have to be made as to the viability of a Tornado force for the PAF, but on the surface level, the Tornado is ideal per capabilities while potentially being affordable on the front end. Long term it may face the whims of the European and American defense establishments, but the PAF has managed to operate the F-16 over these past 30 years. Worst case, we cannibalize the Tornados and operate them like the Iranians operate their Tomcats. If we can get a decent platform at an affordable price, and in only a few years time, it would fulfill our need and allow us to retire the mirages.

On a tonnage basis, 81 Tornados which can carry 9000 kg each, would match the entire PAF Mirage 3/5 fleet of 180 aircraft which can carry 4000 kg each. For reference, each JF-17 can carry a little over 3600 kg. So it would not be a stretch to retire the entire Mirage Fleet if we can acquire the Tornados.

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Tornado-IDS_a000460001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mirage-III_a000733001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/FC-1_a000302001.aspx

As far as carrying special munitions, if the F-16s can be modified to carry them, then the Tornado can be adapted one way or another to carry them.

The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.

Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.

Source: http://www.deagel.com/

I noticed 3 points regarding PAF:
1. PAF is not buying old generation (4 or less) second hand aircraft's which are not flown already in inventory (e.g Mirage 2000, JH-7)
2. PAF is buying aircrafts which it also had once brand new decades ago (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)
3. PAF is increasing numbers of older aircrafts in inventory (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)

The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory. Lastly there is no mention of J-10 acquisition by PAF officials probably because JF-17 Block III comes close to it in some factors while other factors are covered by F-16.

 

[randomradio]

True. Still the option to pursue M2K remains viable.

India won't let that happen. You know that.

Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.

So nothing to do with Kargil War, 2002 terror attacks, Mumbai attacks etc? We almost went to war 4 times the last decade, and it had nothing to do with the state of the PAF.

Paf had assumed that the threat of war was gone and peace was about to be made---and thus the money spent on the F16's would be a wastage---.

No such condition existed at any time in the 2000s. No clue what has made you assume this.

The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory.

If it's a Western import, then Gripen E would be the best bet.

But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.

 

[Amigator]

But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.

Just Like IAF (mini Russian air force with bad maintenance)

You are right if we didn't decided at least one western or Russian equipment till 2020. But hopefully either western avionics will be inducted in JF-17 or another platform will be inducted in PAF.

 

[denel]

India won't let that happen. You know that.



So nothing to do with Kargil War, 2002 terror attacks, Mumbai attacks etc? We almost went to war 4 times the last decade, and it had nothing to do with the state of the PAF.



No such condition existed at any time in the 2000s. No clue what has made you assume this.



If it's a Western import, then Gripen E would be the best bet.

But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.

why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.

 

[The Accountant]

why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.

Coz Indians will put ecnomic and financial sanctions on France if they allow resale of MK2 to Pakistan ... lolz

 

[denel]

Coz Indians will put ecnomic and financial sanctions on France if they allow resale of MK2 to Pakistan ... lolz

oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.

 

[The Accountant]

oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.

but Indians here think that the world revolves around them and they have become a super-power ...

 

[araz]

oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.

I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
A

 

[ziaulislam]

I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
A

I see option of used typhoons via italy more likely than mirage20000..seems french have completely gave up Pakistani market

 

[araz]

I see option of used typhoons via italy more likely than mirage20000..seems french have completely gave up Pakistani market

Agreed but everything at the moment is up for grabs and can change at a moments notice. Wait till 2021 though and things will clearify.
A