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Can India do what Russia did in Ukraine? -Gen. Tariq

There is no anti Army sentiment in central Punjab. Not even in the constituencies that vote for PMLN en masse. PMLN local leaders do not talk against Army. It's the top leadership only.

The only exception is the liberal wannabes from the urban centers. Army bashing has become sort of 'fashionable' in some elite universities (like LUMS)... They believe that Army bashing makes them look cool and educated .. not much of "sentiments" involved ..

PS: .. India has never been able to defeat Pakistan in the western theatre even when we didn't have nukes .. India neither has the means nor the will to do to Pakistan what Russia has done to Ukraine.. The chances of Pakistan invading/attacking India/ Indian Occupied Kashmir are in fact higher than India invading Pak
Denial wont get you anything

We were in same denial in 1950s about bengal and see what happened

Back then we said its just some top leadership not root but those roots listen to leaderships

I have seen it my self there is sentiment now that didnt existed before 2017 ..i was stunned by the change in sentiment in just 4 years

Its early stages but this can grow and lead to disintegration of pakistan

Just denying it doesnt exist wont change anything
 
China will not get involved but someone crazy on our western border will even volunteer.. That is right the IEA.. They seem to have a large army you just slowly bring their conventional armed forces to high modern level.. Unleash them together with Pak Army.. I Guraantee you we will be able to overrun India within 12-48 months.

Besides I don't wanna ever see any General or gov't official taking a defensive approach towards India and if anyone does that he should be relieved of all his duties and sacked from their positions and posts while giving room to only the offensive oriented..

Also I wanna highlight this so that it sticks and nobody gets deluded ''WE ARE NOT IN DEFENSIVE AGAINST INDIA PERIOD WITH A BIG CAPITAL'' but rather in OFFENSIVE DOCTRINE AND WHEN FIRST BULLETS GO ALL OF INDIA IS FAIR GAME

Why these on the western borders because they are theorically crazy enough to undertake such an offensive and they don't mind to participate in it hence our approach should be only forward...

Invite the IEA to the campaign
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You need tactical intelligence and pin-point precision calculations but you need above all that The crazy...
  • “There's a fine line between genius and insanity. ...
  • “No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness
Just my humble 2 cents here,
The IEA would get involved in a Pak-India war, they would have to.
Im not an expert on islamic theology but certain Hadiths, mention certain things.
They way they see it, Its just a matter of time before certain events and ghazwa -e- hind, come to pass.
Never underestimate the power of belief.
It was the IEA's and Pakistani allies, unshakable belief in God that defeated two superpowers in 40 years ( with a lot of help from the ISI).
The IEA and a huge army of believers from Pakistan and beyond will see it as the mother of Jihads to liberate Kashmir, All muslims of India, all north India, force another partition of India and raise the black and white flags in New Delhi.
 
Denial wont get you anything

We were in same denial in 1950s about bengal and see what happened

Back then we said its just some top leadership not root but those roots listen to leaderships

I have seen it my self there is sentiment now that didnt existed before 2017 ..i was stunned by the change in sentiment in just 4 years

Its early stages but this can grow and lead to disintegration of pakistan

Just denying it doesnt exist wont change anything
What is it thay you've seen / noted specifically?
 
Denial wont get you anything

We were in same denial in 1950s about bengal and see what happened

Back then we said its just some top leadership not root but those roots listen to leaderships

I have seen it my self there is sentiment now that didnt existed before 2017 ..i was stunned by the change in sentiment in just 4 years

Its early stages but this can grow and lead to disintegration of pakistan

Just denying it doesnt exist wont change anything

I live in central Punjab. I have heard PMLN MNAs literally abusing Nawaz Sharif and central PMLN leadership in private gatherings, for their anti Army rhetoric that is impossible for the local PMLN leadership to defend in front of masses.

The Punjab card also didn't work as Qamar Javed Bajwa (hailing from Gujranwala) was more Punjabi than the Kashmiri leadership of PMLN.

Of course there are people who follow their leadership blindly, and then we also have those who have personal reasons to hate army .. But they form an insignificant minority..
 
I live in central Punjab. I have heard PMLN MNAs literally abusing Nawaz Sharif and central PMLN leadership in private gatherings, for their anti Army rhetoric that is impossible for the local PMLN leadership to defend in front of masses.

The Punjab card also didn't work as Qamar Javed Bajwa (hailing from Gujranwala) was more Punjabi than the Kashmiri leadership of PMLN.

Of course there are people who follow their leadership blindly, and then we also have those who have personal reasons to hate army .. But they form an insignificant minority..
Well, clearly they are winning and clearly they have following

If you look in public even the low tier lesdership openly critize army and have been calling a new punjabi card..

When i travelled to punjab this summer(and my family is from urban punjab)
The anti army sentiment was clear and strong

As i said this is new and it hasnt grown enough but a decade ago noone could have imagine critizing army in punjab like this and even getting a single vote

Amazing how you can now critize army and win an election in punjab..if u time travel back in 2016 and say this noone will beleive you

Maryum has changed the ground rules just like mujeeb ur rehman did

In spane of just 10 years mujeeb sow so much distress that it let to rebellion

Give maryum 10 years and see what happens(she got 5 years and results are there to see)
 
enthusiasts are watching the Russo-Ukraine Conflict with interest and asking the question that would India be able to execute such a maneuver against Pakistan. Well, India is not Russia and Pakistan is not Ukraine, writes Gen Tariq Khan, who retired as head of Pakistan’s Central Command


Russia has invaded Ukraine as was expected. It was a spectacular display of military capability in the face of a total military imbalance. A full spectrum application of the military instrument by land, air and sea as well as ground and air coordinated operations. In shaping the battlefield environment, the Russians targeted the Ukrainian air defence and destroyed most of the Ukrainian air force on the ground. Then the Russians engaged the Ukrainians along the border regions by a multi-directional maneuver while airborne assets simultaneously engaged the middle spaces and the depths i.e. Russian gunships and air force engaged middle-based Ukrainian deployments while airborne divisions landed in-depth capturing airports and communication centers.

Every dimension of Ukrainian military resistance was engaged piecemeal through coordinated operations. This denied any synergy or cohesion for any meaningful Ukrainian resistance and collapse is now imminent. On the second day of the invasion, Russia can establish an air-land bridge, encircle Kyiv, liberate the Donbas region and possibly set into motion the series of actions to put up a Russian Friendly Government. It is unlikely that Russia would want to occupy Ukraine but would instead prefer it to be a buffer state between itself and NATO forces; as such it is expected that Russia has achieved its objectives: i.e. liberation of Donbas and installing a friendly government, would execute a phased withdrawal.

Ukraine’s predicament is mainly a consequence of its lack of capacity

It is the only country to give up its nuclear weapons on a vague guarantee by the US and Europe that they would protect it against any aggression. The promise was never kept and Ukraine was left on its own. Also, the disputed question of the Minsk Agreement is being interpreted differently by every side to serve their own arguments. However, the fact remains, that it was never fully implemented despite many years have passed by. Lastly, NATO’s continual attempts at wooing Ukraine to join NATO was a direct threat to Russia and had Ukraine joined NATO at any stage, NATO forces would be sharing a border direct with Russia which was totally unacceptable to Russia.

Some enthusiasts are watching the Russo-Ukraine Conflict with interest and asking the question that would India be able to execute such a maneuver against Pakistan. Well, India is not Russia and Pakistan is not Ukraine. The military parity between Pakistan and India allows Pakistan a credible conventional defence of its own territories. The conclusion and effect of the so-called Indian calculated surgical intrusion in February 2019 is a good indicator as to how Pakistan can handle the Indians.

Yet the most pertinent point in any such argument is that Pakistan never gave up its nuclear capability and in fact, if there is any lesson in the Russo-Ukraine Conflict, it’s that Pakistan must never give up this capability. Yet, the military capability of both countries does not give any clear advantage to India to invade Pakistan and whatever minimum deterrence is in place for Pakistan, is more than sufficient to deny Indian adventurism.

Read more: Biden refuses to send US troops to fight in Ukraine

How the world will be affected by the Russo-Ukraine Conflict?


The possible consequences of the Russo-Ukraine Conflict are global recession and collapse in oil, gas and wheat prices. Europe will suffer gas shortages, industrial closures and unemployment. Russia may experience a severe economic fallout affecting its banking, reserves and business. What’s important is that Pakistan will feel the heat with wheat shortages, high fuel and energy prices that will go way higher than what they are. Economic activity will slow down and political unrest may remain on the rise. Afghanistan will assert itself for some time by pacifying its people by embarrassing Pakistan along the Durand Line on every opportunity. Baluchistan separatist movement will accelerate because of TTP and Indian support. All these matters can be contained by a proper plan and way forward and it is hoped that the Government is thinking along these lines.

Pakistan has repeatedly said it does not want to belong to any block but is there a need to say such a thing and define a position? It is recommended that Pakistan must not offer any rhetoric or wisdom, especially if it cannot sustain its commitments. In the first place, the world is indifferent to what we have to say and in the second place, our credibility is on the line as always. It’s best to remain quiet and only contribute to any meaningful dialogue if and when invited to one. Pakistan must resolve its own political crisis one way or the other. Every matter is politicized and not dealt with from a national point of view but more from hurting the opposing party.

Read more: Middle Eastern states walk a tightrope that Ukraine spins ever tighter

The moment in history and the current global upheaval points to a unified approach based on national interests. Vague ideological references and historical examples will not do. The government needs to put together an All Parties Conference and search for a common approach to what seems to be a very difficult time staring us in the face. Party and personal differences must be put aside; our priorities must focus on the economy with emphasis on gas and energy, then on security on the Eastern, Western and Southern Borders. Our intelligence agencies must be able to offer predictive analysis into the future and develop KPIs leading to major conclusions.

Having validated these conclusions, a course of action must be mounted in a timely and cost-effective manner to contain or mitigate the effects of hostile activity. The need of the hour is central authority and a decentralized execution down to the tehsil level with a coordinated civil-military oversight. This is possible by establishing fusion cells that have plug-ins related to law and order, traffic, weather, hospitals and banking including any other event, etc.

The plug-in involves medical units, police, intelligence, civil administration and the Army. Local bodies must be empowered as soon as possible and allowed to exercise their popular mandate. Development funds must be made available to them on the basis of a staggered system based on progress. External audits systems need to be put into place immediately. Our systems must be set up to support the country and its people. Pakistan must gear up to weather the storm that is on the horizon and it does not look too good at the moment.
We must have cohesion tactics/education in schools, colleges and universities through religious, inspirational speakers, police and military interaction.

4. China will not....no one will fight for us but us. And we don't want anyone.
No quite true, when US was in Afghanistan and was intending to attack Pakistan's installations, China made it clear an attack on Pakistan would be an attack on China and if you fight Pakistan then you would be fighting China. A friend at time of need is a friend indeed.
 
Karachi port handles 60% of your cargo, while Port Bin Qasem handles 35% of your cargo, both ports in Karachi nearby each other. Rest are small ports not much of importance if 95% is concentrated in a single city just 36km apart from each other.
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You do realise reliance from Karachi is slowly etching away. You type as if nothing is changing. How on earth is Gwader a 'small port of not much significance'?



The other ports also have major naval facilities, not commercial shipping.
Also do you think Karachi will be wide open without any defence, the Pakistani navy will be waiting for anyone, which at this point in time is experiencing a massive build up. Yes there maybe no real defence against supersonic missiles (Pakistan also has them), but intruding ships can be channeled into a smaller area of water and hit.
 
Im not saying China will fight for or with Pakistan. Im saying China would most definitely not want to miss a situation such as a pak indo war. They will most likely try to use it to their advantage to push in and make their own gains against India. Weve seen it in Galwan in 2020.
China will not fight for anyone, but they will would not miss an opportunity like a Pak - India war. Chinese think tanks went into overdrive last year over the border clash and that issue is still active, they came close to war. The Chinese think tanks openly stated that rather than an all out China India war, the preferred situation would be a a limited China - India war, with Pakistan and India going to total war and fight to the finish. Its a large market and they want Pakistan to be seen as the main enemy.
 
Like other members here pointed out, PAK is not Ukraine and India is not Russia. There aren't pro India separatists in Pak that India could exploit, however there are in IOK. Pak has tactical nukes, Pak will try their best to fight off Indian armour in Rajasthan by conventional means, how ever if the Indian armour breaches the canal defences, the nukes will be used. Other than that, there is no other place where they will have conventional edge. And if history is anything to go by, Indian morale seems to wane once they are on Pak land. Pakistan will not sit by like Ukraine did, Pak has a history of hitting back harder. Do Indians even have the heart like Russians, able to take casualties? Perhaps some elite outfits, but not the rest. These things also matter. After all, if it was just a numbers game, we wouldn't be around.
 
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You do realise reliance from Karachi is slowly etching away. You type as if nothing is changing. How on earth is Gwader a 'small port of not much significance'?



The other ports also have major naval facilities, not commercial shipping.
Also do you think Karachi will be wide open without any defence, the Pakistani navy will be waiting for anyone, which at this point in time is experiencing a massive build up. Yes there maybe no real defence against supersonic missiles (Pakistan also has them), but intruding ships can be channeled into a smaller area of water and hit.
I just pointed out that majority of your cargo handling happens in Karachi and thats a fact, no denying that Gwader is growing but still is nothing in front of Karachi. Any damage to Karachi’s port infra will cause enough decisive damage to Pakistan’s economy.
 
I really do think Pakistan and India should be in a new Command and Conquer (great series) Generals game. Much fervour can be gotten rid of from both sides.
They have Ukraine and Soviet in remastered version of C&C multiplayer game.
 
Well, clearly they are winning and clearly they have following

If you look in public even the low tier lesdership openly critize army and have been calling a new punjabi card..

When i travelled to punjab this summer(and my family is from urban punjab)
The anti army sentiment was clear and strong

As i said this is new and it hasnt grown enough but a decade ago noone could have imagine critizing army in punjab like this and even getting a single vote

Amazing how you can now critize army and win an election in punjab..if u time travel back in 2016 and say this noone will beleive you

Maryum has changed the ground rules just like mujeeb ur rehman did

In spane of just 10 years mujeeb sow so much distress that it let to rebellion

Give maryum 10 years and see what happens(she got 5 years and results are there to see)
She isn't going to win any elections don't worry
 
Gen. Panag - put a number on Indian Army KIAs, in the event of them opening a front to take AJK. In his very words, it’ll cost 4000 men for a 2 Sq km incursion.
But the next war wont be fought that way i.e. for every sq Km.

Even the 71 war wasn't fought every sq km.
India by passed other major towns in East Pakistan and reached near Dhaka by para dropping, then asked for surrender.

Indian military analysts say even Putin following a similar approach with Ukraine and paradropped special forces near the outskirt of kyiv to gain surrender of Ukraine.

Anyways, coming back to AJK, the point is, India wont be fighting in the mountains to capture AJK.
 
I just pointed out that majority of your cargo handling happens in Karachi and thats a fact, no denying that Gwader is growing but still is nothing in front of Karachi. Any damage to Karachi’s port infra will cause enough decisive damage to Pakistan’s economy.
Ok bro thanks for letting us know, we will just be sitting around twiddling our thumbs.

But the next war wont be fought that way i.e. for every sq Km.

Even the 71 war wasn't fought every sq km.
India by passed other major towns in East Pakistan and reached near Dhaka by para dropping, then asked for surrender.

Indian military analysts say even Putin following a similar approach with Ukraine and paradropped special forces near the outskirt of kyiv to gain surrender of Ukraine.

Anyways, coming back to AJK, the point is, India wont be fighting in the mountains to capture AJK.
You need air superiority for that. Good luck lol
 

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