Best BVR Capable Fighter in South Asia

[rockstarIN]

Do not want to start again, stick to the topic pls

 

[TaimiKhan]

well said boss......A reason for PAF looking for M2K in 90s was the BVR capability. But since the deal was scrapped,so started the ROSE Program.

F-7Ps radar had a range of 37KM which meant it could fire a BVR but the problem was that PAF did not have a BVR at that time. so sancho's post makes sense that eventhough platforms were BVRable but the BVRAAMs were not available for these ACs. However, PAF F-16s did operate AIM-7 Sparrow BVRs (may be a limited inventory)
Pakistan Air Force Equipment
The F-7PGs brought a better radar Grifo-7PG (http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/GRIFO_FAMILY.pdf) than Grifo-7 with enhanced scanning capabilities. There were Two issues however,
1) can the aircraft's wings have the capability to hold this missile
2) Capability of radar to fire the BVR
here is an old discussion between on this in 2003


so
1)F-7s and Mirages were BVRable but no BVR missiles were available
2) Falcons were operating AIM-7 sparrows

While in development, Pakistan was offered T-Darter in 1999.

in December, 2003 the following news broke

and T Darter is revealed in 2008

so all in all it seems like PAF had very likely accepted the offer and would have had participation in the program yielding it BVR status somewhere around 2001-02 (considering the modifications to T Darter for H-4).....but this is just my analysis....open for discussion

I have no idea what were you trying to say above.

All i know is, that we had BVR capability starting early 2000, most probably by 2002-03 we had operational status.

Mirage ROSE upgraded ones were capable enough to engage BVR targets.

H-4 is not based on T-Darter, its based on R-darter, the Derby BVR missile copy or another variant of it.

T-Darter is a 5th gen, in development WVR missile, which got tested just recently, so H-4 has nothing to do with T-darter.

So, for me end result is, we have been having BVR capability since 2002-03, but in limited way and with addition of AMRAAMs and SD-10s, we will be diversifying our arsenal more and we may be operating 3 types of BVR missiles in the future.

Anyone has to believe that we had BVR capability since early 2000 is upto us, i have my own sources which confirmed it, with additional confirmation coming from reliable online sources.

For everything we are having, there is no requirement that it has to be supported with official sources, some are known through internal sources, friends or family members. I live among PAF retired and serving people, thus i believe what i know.

 

[SBD-3]

I have no idea what were you trying to say above.

All i know is, that we had BVR capability starting early 2000, most probably by 2002-03 we had operational status.

Mirage ROSE upgraded ones were capable enough to engage BVR targets.

H-4 is not based on T-Darter, its based on R-darter, the Derby BVR missile copy or another variant of it.

T-Darter is a 5th gen, in development WVR missile, which got tested just recently, so H-4 has nothing to do with T-darter.

So, for me end result is, we have been having BVR capability since 2002-03, but in limited way and with addition of AMRAAMs and SD-10s, we will be diversifying our arsenal more and we may be operating 3 types of BVR missiles in the future.

Anyone has to believe that we had BVR capability since early 2000 is upto us, i have my own sources which confirmed it, with additional confirmation coming from reliable online sources.

For everything we are having, there is no requirement that it has to be supported with official sources, some are known through internal sources, friends or family members. I live among PAF retired and serving people, thus i believe what i know.

chief its A Darter which is 5th gen WVRAAM not T-Darter.T Darter is a BVRAAM developed from R Darter

 

[TaimiKhan]

chief its A Darter which is 5th gen WVRAAM not T-Darter.T Darter is a BVRAAM developed from R Darter

I mean buddy, T-darter is for now just a conceptualized program, no development, prototype making, testing, rather not a conceptual picture has yet been leaked out. Its a planned thing, they needed partners way back in 2008, they found any is not known to me, as i have never heard of the missile making to design stage or more. So how can a missile which is yet in concepts be made thought the H-4 missile. H-4 is an upgraded R-darter design, nothing new.

T-Darter would be something new, which may not be looking similar to R-darter.

 

[silent hawk]

I have no idea what were you trying to say above.

All i know is, that we had BVR capability starting early 2000, most probably by 2002-03 we had operational status.

Mirage ROSE upgraded ones were capable enough to engage BVR targets.

H-4 is not based on T-Darter, its based on R-darter, the Derby BVR missile copy or another variant of it.

T-Darter is a 5th gen, in development WVR missile, which got tested just recently, so H-4 has nothing to do with T-darter.

So, for me end result is, we have been having BVR capability since 2002-03, but in limited way and with addition of AMRAAMs and SD-10s, we will be diversifying our arsenal more and we may be operating 3 types of BVR missiles in the future.

Anyone has to believe that we had BVR capability since early 2000 is upto us, i have my own sources which confirmed it, with additional confirmation coming from reliable online sources.

For everything we are having, there is no requirement that it has to be supported with official sources, some are known through internal sources, friends or family members. I live among PAF retired and serving people, thus i believe what i know.

This could have been a major factor in preventing India from carrying out surgical strikes after the Mumbai incident.

I kept on think that had I been an Indian with such an obviously superior airforce I would have surely inflicted some pain and punishment on Pakistan.

Hats off to the Pakistani Commanders who had secretly acquired BVR capability hence preserving the self esteem of Pakistan.

PAF hus justifiable resons to say that it is "The Pride of the Nation"

 

[sancho]

Well, the most senior and respected as well as very much reliable member, pshamim sb, an ex-PAF pilot, himself had revealed that H-4 was in reality an A2A BVR missile...

I know some of those threads, also his posts, but so does many of the Pakistani members that still have doubts about it, because there are no official proofs, or sources that this missile is ready and integrated on any PAF fighter.

Even I don't rule out that there is such a missile development, but I think that the claimed performance is simply a misinterpretation of those various rumors. You said:

H-4 was in reality an A2A BVR missile with 120 KM range, based on rather ToT version of R-darter missile, ToT given by South African company...

... we made in house modifications to the seeker technology to make it more deadly and effective as it was already based on Israeli tech, so they might have known about the real product.

R - Darter is a BVR missile by South African Denel, most likely a co-development with Israeli Rafaels Derby missile like some sources say. According to you, PAF got ToT of R - Darter and modfied the seeker, but by modifying the seeker you won't get 120Km range right? How should such a performance be possible, if PAF didn't changed the propulsion and even the original R-Darter and Derby missiles have only 60Km range? Do you really think PAF was able to do something, that not even these more experienced South African and Israeli companies was able to do till now?
Moreover, you said that the Chinese had access to the same ToT too and that it could influenced SD 10 also, but again, if PAF was able to upgrade the missile to 120Km ranges, why couldn't the Chinese with more know how, experience and fundings achieve the same with SD 10, which has a range of 70+ Km only?

Lets be honest, this is more than unlikely and is one reason why these rumors are not reliable!

According to the points you and several other members made, it's more likely that this mysterious missile is just a basic R - Darter with a different seeker only. That would explain why the pic pshamim posted looks like an exact copy of R - Darter, so you might get ToT of the missile including the propulsion, but modified the seekers. India did the same with Brahmos, where Russia provides the basicYakhont missile including the propulsion system, but India adds new seekers, navigation systems and mission computers. So by simple logic, H-4 might just be a different version of R - Darter and obviously must have the same range of around 60 Km. That means that the rumors mixed up the specs of H-4 AAM and H-2 AGM that then should have up to 120Km standoff missile range.


Regarding SD 10 and MICA for JFT you said:

And one of the other reason for going with SD-10 would be, to give it more chances of commercial success, as PAF using SD-10 with JF-17s, will give it a good boost to score any export success. So the SD-10 sale to PAF may be for commercial purposes, rather then for actual war purposes, or may be PAF is looking for diversification, in case one BVR gets easily neutralized during war time.

Unlikely again, because from a comercial point of view, it would make even more sense to offer a variety of missiles to export customers. China would have integrated SD 10 on JFT / FC1 for other export customers anyway, because it is their standard BVR missile that they will use in high numbers, so they don't need PAF to use it just for comercial reasons. On the other hand, if H-4 AAM would have been available and integrated besides SD 10, any export customer could choose which missile they want. For example, if Turkey would want to buy JFT and could choose between H-4 and SD 10 with comparable ranges and seeker techs, would they prefer the Pakistani H-4, or the Chinese SD 10?

And as for Mica missile, it was or is being considered or PAF rumored to be showing interest due to the RC-400, meaning a package deal. We may not have shown our interest, but most probably the seller may have said to give the radar, if we have a package deal which involves weapons also, as it gives boost to their sales. So, out of necessity, PAF may have been evaluating the Mica missile. Not out of its own option.

I hope you are aware what you are saying here, because this means PAF was ready to buy a BVR missile at much higher costs, not because they need it, but because they needed the radar and avionics. If that is true, what does it tell us about PAFs opinion on the Chinese radar and avionics in JFT B1 if they want RC 400 so bad?

Anyone has to believe that we had BVR capability since early 2000 is upto us, i have my own sources which confirmed it, with additional confirmation coming from reliable online sources.

That's what I meant, you base your believe on some unofficial sources, but you don't know it for sure, because there are no official proofs and that's the reason why so many people still have a different opinion. In my personal opinion, the H-4 development might have started in the early 2000s based on R - darter, but the missile is either not operational yet, or does not offer comparable performance like SD 10, otherwise there is simply no reason for PAF to import SD 10, or MICA over H-4 on JFT B1.

 

[Super Falcon]

well with J 10 on the pipeline sooner SU 30 threat of best BVR fighter will be over becos paf is not that stupid they know their current fleet on training can beat IAF but they need something more serious than F 16 and J 10 is bigger in all specs to F 16

 

[Kompromat]

Considering the Modern Day Warfare , my personal favorite is F-16 Block 52+.

 

[Storm Force]

Super Falcon

well with J 10 on the pipeline sooner SU 30 threat of best BVR fighter will be over becos paf is not that stupid they know their current fleet on training can beat IAF but they need something more serious than F 16 and J 10 is bigger in all specs to F 16

Don,t know where you get this better training lark from. PAF pilots have not fired a shot in anger for 20 years.


They are a decade behind the IAF in introducing BVR and force multiplers. And do not have anywhere near the level of training with the USA french Air force or RAF that the IAF enjoy particularly since the SU30MKI came pn to the scene in 2005.

As for BUYING new hardware yes PAF will buy but IAF will spend 5 times as much eg.

PAF buys 18 block 52 f16s with folow order for 14 more maybe 18.
PAF buys 36 J10 may be buy 150

IAF buys 126 mmrca and will follow with buy 64 or even 100 more
IAF buy 190 su30mki now order goes to 272.

REASON WHY falcon because IAF as 5 times as much money each and every year to spend

 

[mourning sage]

Super Falcon



Don,t know where you get this better training lark from. PAF pilots have not fired a shot in anger for 20 years.


They are a decade behind the IAF in introducing BVR and force multiplers. And do not have anywhere near the level of training with the USA french Air force or RAF that the IAF enjoy particularly since the SU30MKI came pn to the scene in 2005.

As for BUYING new hardware yes PAF will buy but IAF will spend 5 times as much eg.

PAF buys 18 block 52 f16s with folow order for 14 more maybe 18.
PAF buys 36 J10 may be buy 150

IAF buys 126 mmrca and will follow with buy 64 or even 100 more
IAF buy 190 su30mki now order goes to 272.

REASON WHY falcon because IAF as 5 times as much money each and every year to spend

Not you again
u just cant spare a single chance to degrade Paf, can you?

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

well with J 10 on the pipeline sooner SU 30 threat of best BVR fighter will be over becos paf is not that stupid they know their current fleet on training can beat IAF but they need something more serious than F 16 and J 10 is bigger in all specs to F 16

SIR ji,here we are considering THE BEST BVR CAPABLE FIGHTER and not the pilots.In such thread one should consider that the pilots from both airforces are equally well.Also one should consider that all other natural factors like god,luck do not exist.
Just compare keeping all other things constant and equal.
Comments like this can flame the keyboard war only and can not help a bit understanding the knowledge.

 

[silent hawk]

Super Falcon



Don,t know where you get this better training lark from. PAF pilots have not fired a shot in anger for 20 years.


They are a decade behind the IAF in introducing BVR and force multiplers. And do not have anywhere near the level of training with the USA french Air force or RAF that the IAF enjoy particularly since the SU30MKI came pn to the scene in 2005.

As for BUYING new hardware yes PAF will buy but IAF will spend 5 times as much eg.

PAF buys 18 block 52 f16s with folow order for 14 more maybe 18.
PAF buys 36 J10 may be buy 150

IAF buys 126 mmrca and will follow with buy 64 or even 100 more
IAF buy 190 su30mki now order goes to 272.

REASON WHY falcon because IAF as 5 times as much money each and every year to spend

I have already had a detailed discussion with rockstar on why PAF claims that thier pilots are better trained. Just go through the links below:-

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...luation-military-strengths-6.html#post1253857

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...luation-military-strengths-6.html#post1253941

All rational people should now accept that PAF pilots are better trained.

 

[rockstarIN]

@silent hawk

IAF pilot capability has been appreciated by all AFs incl. USAF, RAF French AF and other numerous air forces in the world.

When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks: - "What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home. Indian hospitality from everyone has been truly overwhelming. The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot, 'You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.' We depart India with great respect for the Indian Air Force. Your pilots, maint and support crew are exceptional professionals.



IAF got 10 years of BVR experience where are IAF just started getting into it.(I know there are other claims)

Rds,

 

[silent hawk]

@silent hawk

IAF pilot capability has been appreciated by all AFs incl. USAF, RAF French AF and other numerous air forces in the world.

When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks: - "What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home. Indian hospitality from everyone has been truly overwhelming. The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot, 'You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.' We depart India with great respect for the Indian Air Force. Your pilots, maint and support crew are exceptional professionals.



IAF got 10 years of BVR experience where are IAF just started getting into it.(I know there are other claims)

Rds,

I have no doubts that the IAF pilots are just as sincere and capable as PAF pilots. It is the IAF training system and particularly the absence of a dedicated fighter trainer due to which I claim that PAF has a better training system The PAFs Flight Safety record proves that what I say is correct

 

[airuah]

Not you again
u just cant spare a single chance to degrade Paf, can you?

and you are one who just cant bear the truth are'nt you.....he in no way degraded the PAF .....just stated simple facts......its always good to have your feet on the ground