Best BVR Capable Fighter in South Asia

[silent hawk]

This is where I feel the PAF may have an advantage.

Generally to fire a BVR the target must be acquire by the AI. Now according to post 2 the MIG 29K will pick up PAF block 52s first. However according to post 77 the F-16s block 52 shall pick up the adversaries much earlier. There is controversy here but atleast we can accept that the competion is between these two.

The Off boresight capability of AA-12 with Mig 29K AI is 45 degrees. On the otherhand the offboresight capabity of AMRAAMs with F-16 block 52 radars radars is 65 degrees. hence using internal AI the PAF block 52s while using AMRAAMs shall have off bore sight advantage of 20 degrees over their adversaries.

Neutral people in this thread have admitted that the Link-16 is superior than the tactical data links available with India. The biggest advantage of the link 16 is that it integrates data from own aircraft, AWACS and ground sensors as well. With India as the aggressor the fight is likely to take place over Pakistan in which case the link 16 shall give the Block 52s 360 degrees radar coverage. Using the helmetmounted cueing system the Block 52 F-16s while using AMRAAMs shall hence have an off bore sight capability of upto 180 degrees (academically)

The PAF is sure to develop its tactics on these facts and hence it is very likely that due to their unmatched off bore sight capability in future combat the block 52 F-16s may prove to be the best BVR capable fighters

Main engagement scenario is against other aircraft with fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 (NATO AA-12 "Adder") — perhaps MiG-29s, Su-27s or similar. In this case engagement is very much down to teamwork and could be described as "a game of chicken." Both flights of aircraft can fire their missiles at each other beyond visual range (BVR), but then face the problem that if they continue to track the target aircraft in order to provide mid-course updates for the missile's flight, they are also flying into their opponents' missiles. Although in this regard the RVV-AE (which is the missile's export name or R-77 the official Russian Air force designation) does have an advantage as it has a greater range than the AMRAAM (when the AIM-120D is deployed the AMRAAM will have 30+ miles more range than the standard R-77[citation needed] but much less than the ramjet powered R-77M and the Meteor missiles which will also enter service along with AIM-120D). This assumes of course that all aircraft will detect each other

Data from Wikipedia..

The electronic warfare which is being used by us is proven a mix of systems from 3-4 countries. Plus, we have evaluated the F-16 systems thru MMRCA & from joint excercises with Singapore F-16s and familiar with it. and most probably we will not opt for it.

AoA RockStar nice to have you back. The bold portion is where the PAF link 16 makes the difference. Because the data is being provided by all available ground and air based sensors, the PAF F-16s shall be able to provide mid course updates to the AMRAAM without having to move in close. This is why I believe we may have an edge.

 

[rockstarIN]

Look at our BVR inventory

1. R-77
2. R-27
3. Matra 350
4. Derby
5. Python 5

Possibles/Under development

6.Astra(almost ready)
7. Astra 2(with Ramjet Engine)
8. MBDA Meteor(if MMRCA won by AF or Refele)
9. AMMRAM(if F-16 or F-18/Gripen)
10 Ramjet version of R-77

And the platforms are

1. Mig-21
2. Mig-29
3. Su-30 Mki
4. Harriers
6.LCA(coming yrs)
7.MMRCA(coming yrs)
8.FGFA(Coming yrs)

 

[silent hawk]

Look at our BVR inventory

1. R-77
2. R-27
3. Matra 350
4. Derby
5. Python 5

Possibles/Under development

6.Astra(almost ready)
7. Astra 2(with Ramjet Engine)
8. MBDA Meteor(if MMRCA won by AF or Refele)
9. AMMRAM(if F-16 or F-18/Gripen)
10 Ramjet version of R-77

And the platforms are

1. Mig-21
2. Mig-29
3. Su-30 Mki
4. Harriers
6.LCA(coming yrs)
7.MMRCA(coming yrs)
8.FGFA(Coming yrs)

You were unable to hit a Korean Airways Civil Airliner with this missile. Please don't include the AA-10 in this list.

We all know the real BVR battle is between your Adders and our AMRAAMs. Some naive guy may be impressed with your list, not me.

 

[rockstarIN]

AoA RockStar nice to have you back. The bold portion is where the PAF link 16 makes the difference. Because the data is being provided by all available ground and air based sensors, the PAF F-16s shall be able to provide mid course updates to the AMRAAM without having to move in close. This is why I believe we may have an edge.

Without mid course updates no active BVR can work.


Mid course update is good radar + data link.

I think once u fire a BVR at ur enemy jet, u can move in close provided it is a one to one combat as the enemy jet will be trying to evade it by running away on full burner. Here comes the adventage of twin seated fighter(heavy fighter) as the pilot can concentrate on flying and other one can handle the censers, radars and weapon systems hence the load is divided. And IAF doctrine is always have twin seaters except interceptors, i think.

PS - happy to see messeges in this thread as BVR is the future of air combat and its in a very fast evolving stage.

Rgds,

 

[rockstarIN]

You were unable to hit a Korean Airways Civil Airliner with this missile. Please don't include the AA-10 in this list.

We all know the real BVR battle is between your Adders and our AMRAAMs. Some naive guy may be impressed with your list, not me.

Agree, R-27 is highly unreliable, which was proved in Etopia - Eritria fight.

Since we have inventory, y cant we fire it first for the sake of getting into a better position?

 

[silent hawk]

Without mid course updates no active BVR can work.


Mid course update is good radar + data link.

I think once u fire a BVR at ur enemy jet, u can move in close provided it is a one to one combat as the enemy jet will be trying to evade it by running away on full burner. Here comes the adventage of twin seated fighter(heavy fighter) as the pilot can concentrate on flying and other one can handle the censers, radars and weapon systems hence the load is divided. And IAF doctrine is always have twin seaters except interceptors, i think.

PS - happy to see messeges in this thread as BVR is the future of air combat and its in a very fast evolving stage.

Rgds,

acording to post 77 F-16 has best radar and Link 16 is almost undisputed better data link. Advantage PAF

 

[rockstarIN]

You were unable to hit a Korean Airways Civil Airliner with this missile. Please don't include the AA-10 in this list.

We all know the real BVR battle is between your Adders and our AMRAAMs. Some naive guy may be impressed with your list, not me.

Huge mistake if you ignore the below too, both are battle proven.

Derby
Python 5

And regarding Astra, which is under development.

We suppose to integrate this for only LCA, but given its performance, now it integrate in Su-Mki and FGFA too.

Rgds,

 

[silent hawk]

There is a very important aspect which I would like to add to the BVR battle.

In case of Block 15 F-16s we aquired AIM-9L all aspect missile. Later through indigenous modifications this missile was added to Mirage and F-7 aircrafts. Pakistan has the capability to indigenously modify missiles of American Orig to work with other aircrafts

Our JF-17, Mirages and F-7s all have the required AI required for AMRAAM operations. Do you really think that PAF would buy 500 missiles for only 18 Aircrafts?

 

[Jungibaaz]

There is a very important aspect which I would like to add to the BVR battle.

In case of Block 15 F-16s we aquired AIM-9L all aspect missile. Later through indigenous modifications this missile was added to Mirage and F-7 aircrafts. Pakistan has the capability to indigenously modify missiles of American Orig to work with other aircrafts

Our JF-17, Mirages and F-7s all have the required AI required for AMRAAM operations. Do you really think that PAF would buy 500 missiles for only 18 Aircrafts?

no.... not for 18 aircraft but 75 aircrafts!
JF-17 will use the SD-10
our F-7s are being phased out...

 

[Arsalan]

The electronic warfare which is being used by us is proven a mix of systems from 3-4 countries. Plus, we have evaluated the F-16 systems thru MMRCA & from joint excercises with Singapore F-16s and familiar with it. and most probably we will not opt for it.

and do you really think PAF knows nothing about Su-27 and the Migs
bro these are not indian indegenious projects and PAF also do participate in lots of joint rexercises.
moreover china have excess to all of these!!

regards!

 

[SQ8]

Both the MKK,MK2 have been flown in by PAF pilots..
data on both the R-77,R-27..and the AA-11 is present.
The Python 5 is a 5th gen IR AAM with BVR engagement ability..
And.. lets just say.. we have taken care of that part as well.. and Ill leave it at that.

 

[rockstarIN]

and do you really think PAF knows nothing about Su-27 and the Migs
bro these are not indian indegenious projects and PAF also do participate in lots of joint rexercises.
moreover china have excess to all of these!!

regards!

In case of MKi, chinese and Indian versions are quite different, MKI avionics are Indian/French/Russian/Israeli blend. Rememebr F-16 Sufa avionics is different from Blk 52 as they use their own systems.

 

[rockstarIN]

There is a very important aspect which I would like to add to the BVR battle.

In case of Block 15 F-16s we aquired AIM-9L all aspect missile. Later through indigenous modifications this missile was added to Mirage and F-7 aircrafts. Pakistan has the capability to indigenously modify missiles of American Orig to work with other aircrafts

Our JF-17, Mirages and F-7s all have the required AI required for AMRAAM operations. Do you really think that PAF would buy 500 missiles for only 18 Aircrafts?

R u saying Pak engineers can add ARMRAMs to old Blk 15 F-16s?

For JF-17, i don't think it can be done as it requires US support for weapon integration.

 

[silent hawk]

R u saying Pak engineers can add ARMRAMs to old Blk 15 F-16s?

For JF-17, i don't think it can be done as it requires US support for weapon integration.

Since the Pressler amedment started working against us, Pakistani Engineers have been doing wonders. Infact our engineering achievements really stand out.

Never say it can't be done to a Pakistani Engineer

 

[rash2k2]

Since the Pressler amedment started working against us, Pakistani Engineers have been doing wonders. Infact our engineering achievements really stand out.

Never say it can't be done to a Pakistani Engineer

bro if I am correct then one need access to source code to integrate other weapons with planes. You mean to say engineers have capability to modify source code. USA will commit suicide and PAF can make billions if they sell F16 source codes.