Beneath burqa, a mangalsutra and chooda

[haviZsultan]

The figures are as official as the word official can get - straight from the mouth of ISPR. No matter how many times you try to deny here it will not change that fact

And Stephen P Cohen claims Pakistan is a duplicitous and backstabbing ally which hunted with the hounds and ran with the hares.

I have found the last part no where in his book on Pakistan, the future of Pakistan and he is known to respect Pakistanis a lot. In either case if he said it in an interview it is his choice and unfortunate. He also said India acts as a bully and has murdered Kashmiris.

The one who wins the debate is not the one who has the last word.

Enjoy your trolling.

 

[scrumpy]

They are not wearing Mangalsutra. For it to call a mangalsutra, they have to wed like Hindu and particular chants and other customs have to be followed.

Otherwise its just a locket, nothing more nothing less.

Many hindu women I know don't wear it all the time since it doesn't go very well with western clothes. It is only brought out at religious ceremonies.

I have seen Muslims & Catholics from the west coast wear Mangalsutras after marriage just like Hindu women. It is used as a sign of marriage and is just a cultural thing.

 

[bronxbull]

lot of catholics of west coast are brahmin converts.

 

[jaibi]

NEW DELHI: As burqa-clad Sumaira walks past the streets of Jama Masjid, there's nothing really striking about her. That's until she flashes the bright red bangles she's wearing — the kind that newly married Hindu women have around their wrists.

Young Muslim women in India, and even Pakistan, can be increasingly seen sporting the chooda, mangalsutra and often the sindoor. And they see no taboo in it, taking it as a fashion statement, something that adds to their 'just married' look.

''Wearing a chooda doesn't make me a Hindu or a lesser Muslim," says 21-year-old Sumaira. "See, among Muslims there is nothing that differentiates married women from those who are still single. I have been fascinated with choodas ever since I was a kid. So that was one of the first things I bought after my engagement. In fact, my cousin Saima, too, wore one at her nikah." So did Huda Ahmad, also from the Jama Masjid area here, when she got married last week. To her surprise, none of her relatives objected.

It's not only the chooda. The demand for mangalsutras is picking up, and not just in India but also in Pakistan where many of those who ask for it attribute it to the influence of India's enormously popular saas-bahu soaps.

Two years ago, when Naseema Aziz, a resident of Karachi, visited her relatives in Delhi they were startled to see her buy seven diamond-studded mangalsutras from Karol Bagh. "Mangalsutra is a beautiful neckpiece and goes with every suit," Naseema explained over phone.

"If one is wearing it out of choice, there's nothing wrong in it. In Pakistan everyone knows I am a Muslim. Merely wearing a mangalsutra won't have me confused for a Hindu."

Jewellers in Delhi confirm this trend. "In the past two-three years, we have seen a growing number of Muslim women, some in burqas, ask for the mangalsutra," says Ankit Kohli, owner of Raj Jewellers. "They prefer the ones that have diamond pendants."

With the mangalsutra and chooda finding favour among Muslim women, how can the sindoor, that eternal sign of a married Hindu girl, be left behind? But while most Hindu women prefer red sindoor, Muslims tend to go for orange. Interestingly, in parts of Kolkata the two different shades have come to distinguish women from the two communities.

Rizwana, who works as a nanny in Kolkata, has seen her mother with orange sindoor. She followed suit when she herself got married in 2010. "Hindu women use red and we orange. Don't women in Delhi do the same?" the 24-year-old asked. In Bihar, however, many Hindu women also use orange sindoor.

This confluence of cultures can these days be witnessed during Muslim weddings too. Some of them come complete with what resembles the sangeet ceremony.

Omar's wedding in Delhi is on February 23 and he's busy not just with his shopping but frenetic dance rehearsals. "Though the wedding is on the 23rd, the nikah will take place on the 10th. And there is a sangeet-cum-mehendi function with dance performances by relatives and friends. Both Hina, my fiancee, and I will be performing," says the excited man.

When asked why the nikah was being held before the functions, he says, "If we perform together before the nikah, some of our elderly relatives might not like it that the girl and boy are dancing away without even getting formally hitched."

Beneath burqa, a mangalsutra and chooda - The Times of India

I'm surprised that so many Indians are surprised that Muslim women wear choorian. It's a common practice here, something we Punjabis especially love. I thought that was common knowlegde!

Secondly, about wearing manglsutra, it CAN be ok as it depends on its cultural connotations. Bengali women wear bindi as it is a part of their culture not faith, that doesn't make them Hindu. If women wear the manglesutra as a decoratvie peice then it is ok because the amalgamation of cultural artifacts is common e.g. the exchange of rings is a Christian tradition do we automatically think a person becomes a Chiristian when he exchanges rings with his wife to be on our weddings, no, we do not. Similar is the case with the Manglesutra. It mostly comes down to the fact that we are more open to Abrahamic faiths then Dharmic faiths and perhaps the vice versa is true for Hindus. Regardless, cultural amalgamation is a sociological fact and I believe it can be used to bind people closer. Research shows that people who live in multicultural environments and actively investigate their cultural identitiy do not only become more tolerant but also report higher self-esteem.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Muslim women dont wear mangalsutra or tht sindor..... yes chorian are worn by women..... whats all this fuss about?

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Perhaps a fatwa prohibiting this ridiculous practice by Muslim women would be appropriate? I can't imagine a Hindu woman wearing a burka and justifying it by saying that it makes a great fashion statement. It is unIslamic for these women to wear mungalsutras and should be prohibited. Will they now insist that taking a thari with a lamp and praying for their husband's well being on Karva Chauth is "just a fashion statement"??? This ridiculous practice by Muslim women must be stopped !

 

[jaibi]

NEW DELHI: As burqa-clad Sumaira walks past the streets of Jama Masjid, there's nothing really striking about her. That's until she flashes the bright red bangles she's wearing — the kind that newly married Hindu women have around their wrists.

Young Muslim women in India, and even Pakistan, can be increasingly seen sporting the chooda, mangalsutra and often the sindoor. And they see no taboo in it, taking it as a fashion statement, something that adds to their 'just married' look.

''Wearing a chooda doesn't make me a Hindu or a lesser Muslim," says 21-year-old Sumaira. "See, among Muslims there is nothing that differentiates married women from those who are still single. I have been fascinated with choodas ever since I was a kid. So that was one of the first things I bought after my engagement. In fact, my cousin Saima, too, wore one at her nikah." So did Huda Ahmad, also from the Jama Masjid area here, when she got married last week. To her surprise, none of her relatives objected.

It's not only the chooda. The demand for mangalsutras is picking up, and not just in India but also in Pakistan where many of those who ask for it attribute it to the influence of India's enormously popular saas-bahu soaps.

Two years ago, when Naseema Aziz, a resident of Karachi, visited her relatives in Delhi they were startled to see her buy seven diamond-studded mangalsutras from Karol Bagh. "Mangalsutra is a beautiful neckpiece and goes with every suit," Naseema explained over phone.

"If one is wearing it out of choice, there's nothing wrong in it. In Pakistan everyone knows I am a Muslim. Merely wearing a mangalsutra won't have me confused for a Hindu."

Jewellers in Delhi confirm this trend. "In the past two-three years, we have seen a growing number of Muslim women, some in burqas, ask for the mangalsutra," says Ankit Kohli, owner of Raj Jewellers. "They prefer the ones that have diamond pendants."

With the mangalsutra and chooda finding favour among Muslim women, how can the sindoor, that eternal sign of a married Hindu girl, be left behind? But while most Hindu women prefer red sindoor, Muslims tend to go for orange. Interestingly, in parts of Kolkata the two different shades have come to distinguish women from the two communities.

Rizwana, who works as a nanny in Kolkata, has seen her mother with orange sindoor. She followed suit when she herself got married in 2010. "Hindu women use red and we orange. Don't women in Delhi do the same?" the 24-year-old asked. In Bihar, however, many Hindu women also use orange sindoor.

This confluence of cultures can these days be witnessed during Muslim weddings too. Some of them come complete with what resembles the sangeet ceremony.

Omar's wedding in Delhi is on February 23 and he's busy not just with his shopping but frenetic dance rehearsals. "Though the wedding is on the 23rd, the nikah will take place on the 10th. And there is a sangeet-cum-mehendi function with dance performances by relatives and friends. Both Hina, my fiancee, and I will be performing," says the excited man.

When asked why the nikah was being held before the functions, he says, "If we perform together before the nikah, some of our elderly relatives might not like it that the girl and boy are dancing away without even getting formally hitched."

Beneath burqa, a mangalsutra and chooda - The Times of India

UPDATE.

So I just went around the thread and saw the responses and mini-debates that evolve and I noticed that this article is from the Times of India a reputed newspaper. I wish to reflect something, firstly, my dear neighbours this article's discourse (a technical term used in social-constructionist theories in the social sciences that concentrates on how and why the language being used is used and attempts to entail a deeper meaning from the words spoken or written, for anyone interested check out Foucauldian Discourse Analysis and Critical Discourse Analysis) reeks of the 'othering' effect.

What is this? This, put simply, is the process by which a distiction is made between US and THEM, US is what is acceptable, what is native, what is right. THEM or the OTHER is what is foreign, alien, below, unacceptable.

The article's title: Benath the Burqa, a Mangalsutra and Chooda is suppose to entail a surprise reaction where these three are suppose to be contradictory and therefore unacceptable as a combination. The Burqa which is suppose to symbolise Islam, the Mangalsutra Hinduism and the Chooda or choorian liberty or femininty and their combination something alien. This underlines an attitude which has frankly done most harm. Muslims are not aliens, they are people too and Muslima are NOT ONE species! They are a people with a rich cultural diversity. Please, resist the stereotyping; go to Bengal and you'd see women with Bindis, saris, choorian and so on, are they any less of a Muslim? No.

I once saw a delegation at FCC with a Bengali lady who had an hijab and a Bindi! Is that not what the soul of moderninty and secularism is? That we are free to choose and synthesis our beliefs? Yes, there are Muslims who would react severly and not surprisingly there are Hindus too who'd do that.

I saw a campaign by Shiv Sena a while back (2004ish) where they were telling that Bollywood was ruining Hindu women into wearing jeans and skirts and that should stop. Guess what, the traditional clothing in India was two-clothed; the belly, top clevage and the lower part of the legs were bare. When did this sudden 'purda' come about? After the Muslims came to India. It is not necessarily bad, mind you, I mean to show you how cultures react and synthesis with one another. Culture which is heavily influenced by religion is a dynamic process.

Lastly, this Othering effect is harmful. See people as people, not just their tags of faith, culture etc., and please do be sensitive to the biasness that exists. For example, Shahrukh Khan's interview about how he feels as a Muslim is a lesson for India and Pakistan. India to see where do they stand as a secular, tolerant nation because prejudice is very hard to counter it usually becomes more and more latent yet the 'Other' community is still marginalised. It is something the liberal Indians have been vocal about and I commend them on it. For us Pakistanis the Shahrukh interview must not be a proud proof of the Two Nation Theory, we are here as a separate nation, yaye, but consider how we treat minorities. How can we claim to be better than our neighbour if our own minorities feel persecuted? How can we criticise them?

Love to hear your views fellow PDFians.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

UPDATE.

So I just went around the thread and saw the responses and mini-debates that evolve and I noticed that this article is from the Times of India a reputed newspaper. I wish to reflect something, firstly, my dear neighbours this article's discourse (a technical term used in social-constructionist theories in the social sciences that concentrates on how and why the language being used is used and attempts to entail a deeper meaning from the words spoken or written, for anyone interested check out Foucauldian Discourse Analysis and Critical Discourse Analysis) reeks of the 'othering' effect.

What is this? This, put simply, is the process by which a distiction is made between US and THEM, US is what is acceptable, what is native, what is right. THEM or the OTHER is what is foreign, alien, below, unacceptable.

The article's title: Benath the Burqa, a Mangalsutra and Chooda is suppose to entail a surprise reaction where these three are suppose to be contradictory and therefore unacceptable as a combination. The Burqa which is suppose to symbolise Islam, the Mangalsutra Hinduism and the Chooda or choorian liberty or femininty and their combination something alien. This underlines an attitude which has frankly done most harm. Muslims are not aliens, they are people too and Muslima are NOT ONE species! They are a people with a rich cultural diversity. Please, resist the stereotyping; go to Bengal and you'd see women with Bindis, saris, choorian and so on, are they any less of a Muslim? No.

I once saw a delegation at FCC with a Bengali lady who had an hijab and a Bindi! Is that not what the soul of moderninty and secularism is? That we are free to choose and synthesis our beliefs? Yes, there are Muslims who would react severly and not surprisingly there are Hindus too who'd do that.

I saw a campaign by Shiv Sena a while back (2004ish) where they were telling that Bollywood was ruining Hindu women into wearing jeans and skirts and that should stop. Guess what, the traditional clothing in India was two-clothed; the belly, top clevage and the lower part of the legs were bare. When did this sudden 'purda' come about? After the Muslims came to India. It is not necessarily bad, mind you, I mean to show you how cultures react and synthesis with one another. Culture which is heavily influenced by religion is a dynamic process.

Lastly, this Othering effect is harmful. See people as people, not just their tags of faith, culture etc., and please do be sensitive to the biasness that exists. For example, Shahrukh Khan's interview about how he feels as a Muslim is a lesson for India and Pakistan. India to see where do they stand as a secular, tolerant nation because prejudice is very hard to counter it usually becomes more and more latent yet the 'Other' community is still marginalised. It is something the liberal Indians have been vocal about and I commend them on it. For us Pakistanis the Shahrukh interview must not be a proud proof of the Two Nation Theory, we are here as a separate nation, yaye, but consider how we treat minorities. How can we claim to be better than our neighbour if our own minorities feel persecuted? How can we criticise them?

Love to hear your views fellow PDFians.

Firstly, I totally appreciate most of your views including that relating to SRK and the lack of patience for minorities' protests in our countries. However, is it not correct that the Prophet of Islam gave specific instructions relating to the dress of a Muslima and specifically prohibited the use of any religious items from other religions ? A point in example would be the wearing of a crucifix by a Muslim as a fashion statement. To remark (as one poster here did)that the mungalsutra is not blessed by the necessary mantra and is therefore not a religious item is just as ridiculous as remarking that the crucifix was not blessed by a Christian priest and is therefore just a fashion accessory.

 

[jaibi]

Firstly, I totally appreciate most of your views including that relating to SRK and the lack of patience for minorities' protests in our countries. However, is it not correct that the Prophet of Islam gave specific instructions relating to the dress of a Muslima and specifically prohibited the use of any religious items from other religions ? A point in example would be the wearing of a crucifix by a Muslim as a fashion statement. To remark (as one poster here did)that the mungalsutra is not blessed by the necessary mantra and is therefore not a religious item is just as ridiculous as remarking that the crucifix was not blessed by a Christian priest and is therefore just a fashion accessory.

Hey, Warrior, thank you for reading my post and appreciating my views; it's good to know you're being heard. Now regarding your question, I would like to clarify that I am not really an expert on Islam but I am a Muslim and my views are just a vulnerable to flaws and biases as any. So here we go, firstly, I pointed out in my reply that people think that Muslims are one entity, that simply, is not ture, Warrior. There are various Muslims who disagree with the notion of such strict interpretations of Islam. Yes, it is obligatory for women to dress a certain way but ultimately that is the woman's choice. We cannot force her. To be a bit more technical it is agreed upon by various scholars that Islamic law came in stages e.g. for a time alcohol was not forbidden, and for the Islamic law to be in the state that the Prophet(PBUH) left it has a great condition and that is that the sociological factors must be in line to allow the existence of the law. There is simply not an agreed upon verdict.

Secondly, there is a general agreement that the Prophet(PBUH) did instruct a certain dress code but that dress code had a premise and that is modesty and decency. If the premise is not being fulfilled there is no need for an outward expression e.g. you are praying but in your mind you are thinking of your homework that would completely disrupt the premise of prayers i.e. being close to God. Many scholars say that it is this premise that is more important (e.g. The Iranian religious clergy allows jeans as it in itself is not imodest, the Wahabi tradition or many offshoots of it are critical of all Western clothing)

Thirdly, Islam is not an ethnic faith by design. It is meant to be propogated to all cultures and thus a strict dress code is actually implausable (e.g. imagine Eskimos in the Burka). Similarly, this strict tradition is an export of the Arab Muslims who connotated their culture with Islam and sought a cultural subjugation of the Indian population (thus, the qualitiy of faith didn't matter but outward expressions of it did and naturally the supression of tradition came in the package). This feature was inherited by the Wahabi school of thought too and was seen in the preachings during Zia-ul-Haq's time and interestingly also by the secular leaders of the Arab world e.g. Nasir of Eqypt and his Pan-Arabism which was resisted by Iran.

I'll also like to give you a personal example, my grandfather (maternal) was a PAF officer and somewhere in the 1950s came a hurricane in East Pakistan he was asked to make a report on the rehabilitation process in the affected areas and during that time many religiously oriented charitites were operating too. He reported back that the humidity is at killer levels, my staff needs to change clothes after we go into the field and not due to destruction caused by the cyclone nor because of the sun but because of the humidity and I'm surprised to see some Maulvi hazrat telling these poor women to be covered from head to toe! His report resulted in a goverment action. He was in East Pakistan pre-1971 and said that we are attacking thier language, their culture (there was a movement to stop Bengali women from wearing the Bindi which was suppose to be a Hindu artifact) this adverse cultural force did contribute to the 1971 debacle.

So the attack on cultural artifacts is not always by religion but the cultural agents of religion e.g. when the British came they didn't overtly attack our faiths but started to attack our culture (see Post-Colonialism).

Now, let's come to the crucifix, I live in Lahore and I've seen personal examples of people wearing decorative cricifixes. The idea behind this is that we are adopting the artifact in a different sense than those of the religion. I'm not condoning this practice just saying that it exists. Similarly, I already told you about the exchanging of the wedding rings, this too is a Christian tradition. We Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs are all guilty of it but what happened was that the cultural collective meaning changed. The ring symbolised marriage not marriage in the eyes of Jesus but the marriage in the eyes of your faith, for those who believe, and in the eyes of the people for those who are atheists or agnostics. Most marriages here in Punjab consist of Maio, Mehndi, Braat, Valima from these only the Valima is of Islamic tradition the rest are from the Dharmic faiths but there aren't mainstream questions to this (esp prior to Zia-ul-Haq and Musharaf's MMA influence). Why? Again because the cultural taboo was lifted.

No faith is alone. There is constant synthesis of practice and symbols, what matters is which practices become condoned and which do not. I'll give you another example you won't see people screaming about the influence of Christian culture on Islam or Hinduism but as you can see the inter influence of Islam and Hinduism causes huge ********. Why? Because our national discourses one way or another paint each other as the 'OTHER' the ememy or the alien. So it's not just a matter of faith but of culture, politics, sociology and psychology.

PS I'm sorry for such a long reply, I tend to get carried away