Beautiful Response to a Statement "Islam is not Peaceful"

[Aka123]

@Oscar paa ji ! tusi ziaada jazbaati nai horahay ? @FaujHistorian yaar tere peace peace nay mera dimagh ko pees dia hai ! stop writing peace at the end of every post before i terrorize somebody

Hahahaha......Ye ekdam sahi kaha bhai...... Fauji Historian har statement ke baad peace likhta hain..

 

[SQ8]

off course I can be wrong.

However we must look at specific verses in their proper context.

Are you referring to Quran 21:107?

Peace

Yes I am. My assertion however is the equating of a title that god reserves for himself.. i.e Rab-ul-Alameen. i.e of all kind. of all words.. hence the perfection that he equates for himself. His Rehmat.. from Bismillah.. is embodied in this Rehmat-ullil-Alameen.
Hence, the idea of imperfection is unacceptable to me.


At the same time, I may have misunderstood you.. if you refer to the fact that the prophet embodied the same emotions/desires as all of us. Such as grief.. or love.. etc. That he too had times where he would feel slightly annoyed.. or angry. But his perfection.. was that despite these inherent human qualities.. he had an impeccable character that helped him overcome these.
After all, if the Prophet was a person who was not affected by the Human conditions , then there would little motivation for people to inspire to be like him. Because if he seems superhuman.. then the qualities of his character seem superhuman.. and hence I will already accept that I cant aspire to embody even one of those since for me as a regular human..these are out of reach.

So, If this is what you refer to(although your statement is quite vague and gives the previous impression).. then I apologize.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Sorry yaar.

didn't mean to annoy anyone, of all the people, you!


Peace is short translation of "Ma-Assalam".


cheerio

man,ur frightening me , its my job to freak out people ! first this:

yaara I like your posts.

, now that ^^^^ ! have u been stalking me ?

 

[FaujHistorian]

man,ur frightening me , its my job to freak out people ! first this: , now that ^^^^ ! have u been stalking me ?

Yaara. This is Ramzan. One of the months dedicated to "absolute peace".

We all need to be "extra" nice to each other.

When I say all, I mean "all".

There is so much Islamist cruelty around, that many of us have forgotten what this holy month really means.



Peace to you and Peace to all.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes I am. My assertion however is the equating of a title that god reserves for himself.. i.e Rab-ul-Alameen. i.e of all kind. of all words.. hence the perfection that he equates for himself. His Rehmat.. from Bismillah.. is embodied in this Rehmat-ullil-Alameen.
Hence, the idea of imperfection is unacceptable to me.


At the same time, I may have misunderstood you.. if you refer to the fact that the prophet embodied the same emotions/desires as all of us. Such as grief.. or love.. etc. That he too had times where he would feel slightly annoyed.. or angry. But his perfection.. was that despite these inherent human qualities.. he had an impeccable character that helped him overcome these.
After all, if the Prophet was a person who was not affected by the Human conditions , then there would little motivation for people to inspire to be like him. Because if he seems superhuman.. then the qualities of his character seem superhuman.. and hence I will already accept that I cant aspire to embody even one of those since for me as a regular human..these are out of reach.

So, If this is what you refer to(although your statement is quite vague and gives the previous impression).. then I apologize.

No need to apologize bro!

My statements were directed specifically to the one poster as tried to make incorrect assertions about Mohammad.


Coming back to 21:107, we must look at this section of Sura Anbiya (roughly from verse 90-112 of chapter on messengers) in light of what Quran kareem says in 2:285 part-2.


Peace to you, peace to all.

p.s. I say peace

=== (I hope you are not as annoyed with this wonderful term as our friend @ RAMPAGE )

 

[SQ8]

Coming back to 21:107, we must look at this section of Sura Anbiya (roughly from verse 90-112 of chapter on messengers) in light of what Quran kareem says in 2:285 part-2.


Peace to you, peace to all.

p.s. I say peace

=== (I hope you are not as annoyed with this wonderful term as our friend @ RAMPAGE )

The ayat you quoted is relevant.. and Its assertion is correct.. that all the Prophets.. were equal in their innocence, in their efforts , in their ethics and morals.. in their characters. Indeed.. it would be Kufr if you say (God forbid) that Prophet Issa was lacklustre in his efforts and weak minded in comparison to Prophet Mohammad. You must also refer to the Hadiath in which the Prophet compares himself to the last brick in a house.. of which the rest of the Prophets are all bricks..Which says two things.

1. The prophet was the last in line of these perfect individuals sent to give mankind a guideline; A guideline that was not into different "software" so to speak.. but more expanded and complete(er) versions of the same software...

2. That he is equal in moral and ethical character to all these Prophets.

Now, all these Prophet's have been accorded certain unique characteristics as well. These characteristics are unique to them just as there are different personalities( again, I emphasize the difference between a personality and character.. I like deep thoughtful conversations, you may not.. its personality.. my character would be my behavior both morally and ethically within those conversations..Angels have no personality.. no desires and cravings and preferences and so forth.) .
Accordingly, there are characteristics given to these prophets..

So, Prophet Adam is also known as Safi-Allah(Allah's Choice)..

Prophet Nuh, Naji Allah (Saved of Allah)..

Prophet Ibrahim- Khalil Allah ( friend of Allah)

Prophet Musa(moses) .. Kaleem Ullah (Conversed with God).

Prophet Isa(jesus).. Ruh Allah ( Spirit of God)..interestingly this seems to be a title that may if said during Prophet Issa's time may have led to the concept of the trinity... but that elsewhere

Prophet Muhmammad. - Habib-Allah ( Beloved of God)...

Now, based on that.. these titles are based on what God holds these prophets with him. It does not mean that God did not give his essence to Prophet Moses or Adam or even to us.. but that Prophet Issa had this particular embodiment of God most strong in him.

Now, we all have relatives who are equal in standing to most of us.. correct? for an analogy.. lets say you have twin sons in adulthood. both are of similar features.. both may be very honest and pious . However, one is reserved and intimidating to his peers.. while the other is more outgoing and attracts people. So if you are someone who prefers a certain personality.. even if you give them both equal attention, equal privileged.. etc.. You will still have greater feelings for the one whose personality is what you prefer.
Unlike us however, God is incapable of injustice in dispensing his Love. He does so based on reasons and not out of whim since that would go against his other declared characteristics in the Quran.

Now, Prophet Muhammad was Habib Allah( Beloved of Allah).. in essence, his characteristic.. that is essentially present in all Human beings(including you and me) of being Loved by Allah .. was the strongest of any other creature made by him. Why? If god gave them all equal characters.. and put them on an equal level morally and ethically.. i.e the element of Prophethood.. the mantle.. the identification of it is through the pre-ordained character of these individuals. Since God states that he already has planned what he wishes to happen.. then these characters might have been ordained when he said "Kun". Or perhaps, these characteristics.. of innocence, of Moral and ethical values .. are present due to the Spirit(Ruh) of God in all of us...but I chose to focus on the former for this example.

Then why nominate Prophet Mohammad as his most loved?
All the Prophets were Human beings from different backgrounds.. and different upbringing in many cases.. and different personalities. The characteristics that made them Prophets.. their innocence(of being free from sin),Perfect moral and ethical bounds in their conscious and Their commitment and efforts to preach the message of God are all same and equal. So clearly God has not been unjust to them in their stature as Prophets.
However, their human element.. their personality..their "clay".. the process of how their character encompassed itself.. was different.Perhaps Prophet Moses showed a greater tendency to anger than the others based on the account given of him. Other Prophets have not been narrated to have the same personality.

Hence, the only thing that could distinguish Prophet Mohammad to God as the most beloved seems to be his Personality. Therefore, If the Prophet had a personality(which is a Human condition element) that has been declared by God as his most dear is interpreted by me.. as God's identification of key personality traits that he loves most in a human being. Again, personality.. not capability... not.. features.. not heritage(because otherwise all Prophets should have looked, talked ,walked etc.. in short.. been clones).. not character.. but personality.. (not skills or profession since Moses was a Shephard and Jesus was a Carpenter)

So,if all the Prophets.. are equal in their respect, their capabilities ,their morals and ethics, commitments , etc and this is a direct result of God's command.
And if their human traits are separate from this mantle. Then if God is choosing to call someone his most beloved.. that should in my view embody their characteristic as the best of Human beings. i.e.. with all their inherent limitations(temptations, desires etc).. under immense hardship and trial.. still possessed the best permutation of what ANY human being(as a control).. ANYWHERE(throughout the time and space of humanity) could achieve. And so.. the perfect Human being.

In conclusion, the Prophet was equal in stature, in responsibility, in ethics and morals and so on as I have stated to all these Prophets.. But as a Human being.. he was the perfect example of what we can become as a personality.

Proving or disproving a point has much more weight to it if done in a civil manner.

 

[RazPaK]

The ayat you quoted is relevant.. and Its assertion is correct.. that all the Prophets.. were equal in their innocence, in their efforts , in their ethics and morals.. in their characters. Indeed.. it would be Kufr if you say (God forbid) that Prophet Issa was lacklustre in his efforts and weak minded in comparison to Prophet Mohammad. You must also refer to the Hadiath in which the Prophet compares himself to the last brick in a house.. of which the rest of the Prophets are all bricks..Which says two things.

1. The prophet was the last in line of these perfect individuals sent to give mankind a guideline; A guideline that was not into different "software" so to speak.. but more expanded and complete(er) versions of the same software...

2. That he is equal in moral and ethical character to all these Prophets.

Now, all these Prophet's have been accorded certain unique characteristics as well. These characteristics are unique to them just as there are different personalities( again, I emphasize the difference between a personality and character.. I like deep thoughtful conversations, you may not.. its personality.. my character would be my behavior both morally and ethically within those conversations..Angels have no personality.. no desires and cravings and preferences and so forth.) .
Accordingly, there are characteristics given to these prophets..

So, Prophet Adam is also known as Safi-Allah(Allah's Choice)..

Prophet Nuh, Naji Allah (Saved of Allah)..

Prophet Ibrahim- Khalil Allah ( friend of Allah)

Prophet Musa(moses) .. Kaleem Ullah (Conversed with God).

Prophet Isa(jesus).. Ruh Allah ( Spirit of God)..interestingly this seems to be a title that may if said during Prophet Issa's time may have led to the concept of the trinity... but that elsewhere

Prophet Muhmammad. - Habib-Allah ( Beloved of God)...

Now, based on that.. these titles are based on what God holds these prophets with him. It does not mean that God did not give his essence to Prophet Moses or Adam or even to us.. but that Prophet Issa had this particular embodiment of God most strong in him.

Now, we all have relatives who are equal in standing to most of us.. correct? for an analogy.. lets say you have twin sons in adulthood. both are of similar features.. both may be very honest and pious . However, one is reserved and intimidating to his peers.. while the other is more outgoing and attracts people. So if you are someone who prefers a certain personality.. even if you give them both equal attention, equal privileged.. etc.. You will still have greater feelings for the one whose personality is what you prefer.
Unlike us however, God is incapable of injustice in dispensing his Love. He does so based on reasons and not out of whim since that would go against his other declared characteristics in the Quran.

Now, Prophet Muhammad was Habib Allah( Beloved of Allah).. in essence, his characteristic.. that is essentially present in all Human beings(including you and me) of being Loved by Allah .. was the strongest of any other creature made by him. Why? If god gave them all equal characters.. and put them on an equal level morally and ethically.. i.e the element of Prophethood.. the mantle.. the identification of it is through the pre-ordained character of these individuals. Since God states that he already has planned what he wishes to happen.. then these characters might have been ordained when he said "Kun". Or perhaps, these characteristics.. of innocence, of Moral and ethical values .. are present due to the Spirit(Ruh) of God in all of us...but I chose to focus on the former for this example.

Then why nominate Prophet Mohammad as his most loved?
All the Prophets were Human beings from different backgrounds.. and different upbringing in many cases.. and different personalities. The characteristics that made them Prophets.. their innocence(of being free from sin),Perfect moral and ethical bounds in their conscious and Their commitment and efforts to preach the message of God are all same and equal. So clearly God has not been unjust to them in their stature as Prophets.
However, their human element.. their personality..their "clay".. the process of how their character encompassed itself.. was different.Perhaps Prophet Moses showed a greater tendency to anger than the others based on the account given of him. Other Prophets have not been narrated to have the same personality.

Hence, the only thing that could distinguish Prophet Mohammad to God as the most beloved seems to be his Personality. Therefore, If the Prophet had a personality(which is a Human condition element) that has been declared by God as his most dear is interpreted by me.. as God's identification of key personality traits that he loves most in a human being. Again, personality.. not capability... not.. features.. not heritage(because otherwise all Prophets should have looked, talked ,walked etc.. in short.. been clones).. not character.. but personality.. (not skills or profession since Moses was a Shephard and Jesus was a Carpenter)

So,if all the Prophets.. are equal in their respect, their capabilities ,their morals and ethics, commitments , etc and this is a direct result of God's command.
And if their human traits are separate from this mantle. Then if God is choosing to call someone his most beloved.. that should in my view embody their characteristic as the best of Human beings. i.e.. with all their inherent limitations(temptations, desires etc).. under immense hardship and trial.. still possessed the best permutation of what ANY human being(as a control).. ANYWHERE(throughout the time and space of humanity) could achieve. And so.. the perfect Human being.

In conclusion, the Prophet was equal in stature, in responsibility, in ethics and morals and so on as I have stated to all these Prophets.. But as a Human being.. he was the perfect example of what we can become as a personality.

They were all humans. Nothing special.

There is a hadees I read, can't remember the name.

A blind man came and ask prophet Muhammad saw about Islam.

The prophet ignored him, to try and explain Islam to a rich merchant of Mecca.

Allah swt was very angry with our prophet for ignoring the blind man.

The blind man wanted the knowledge or ilm, while the rich merchant could not have cared less.

Even our naabis and rasools were not without mistakes.

However, they were the best mankind could offer, and trust me, mankind offers a lot worse.

 

[forcetrip]

I beg to disagree.

Christianity got smart and adjusted its role when it saw the wave of freedom and enlightenment sweeping through Western Europe. When the intellectuals pushed it out of the governments it didn't launch its version of Talib@stards and Hizbullah-cesspoolla.

That has allowed the Christian countries to become free from Popes, Ayatullahs, and Mullahs and thus progress and prosper by leaps and bounds.

Some small groups in Christianity still behave as anti-science and anti-freedom just like their medieval days, but luckily they get routed in the courts and by government laws.


Muslims countries in general and Pakistan in particular refuse to see this. We have our eyes shut, our ears closed. We are like village idiots laughing at the passing train, or worse dogs that bark at the passing car.

Many of our intellectuals equate intelligence of Christian societies with weakness.

And thus

we fail to emulate the successful implementation of kicking government and politicians out of our mosques.

This in turn makes our mosques a cesspool for 2-bit Mullahs and Ayatullahs f@rking our countries and our people.


And most Muslims are just too happy with being f@rked by Ayatullahs and Mullahs and their militant wings like Talib@stards and Hizbullah-cesspoolla.


And the worst thing we all do is that by doing all these terrible deeds, we bring bad name to beautiful and egalitarian religion of Islam.


peace

I see your point and it is correct. But I do not agree that by calling yourself christian or muslim you are actually practicing that faith. There are rules and regulations within both these religions that if not followed your participation in that religion becomes in a way null and void. The amount of people practicing christianity among the working class around the world has been dropping. So the actual change in religion you are talking about is not a change in religion. It is the change in a person shunning practices and making their own or changing them according to his own need. Kind of like the debate between the passive western muslims who have a mortgage and drive BMW's trying to explain to the muslim on the east who gets to live in a refugee camp while his house gets bombed that Islam does not teach violence. Both have very different interpretations of islam and both follow their own form of religion according to their living standards. One with nothing worldy see biryani in his thoughts of atleast having the promised things in death. The other having all the worldly things wants to protect it. All these examples are not absolute, there are always exceptions. But overwhelming percentage of both sides work the same way. Like human beings.

 

[RangerPK]

yaara I like your posts.


But this thread is lame. Sorry to say.


People should not participate in discussions such as:


1. Islam is/is not peaceful
2. Hinduism is/is not peaceful
3. Christianity is/is not peaceful



or worse

1. Quran is/is not peaceful
2. Gita is/is not peaceful
3. Bible is/is not peaceful
4. Torah is/is not peaceful


These are concepts and intangible "things", and you cannot associate "actions and reactions" to intangible things.


Pakistani Muslims (or Muslim origin people in the West) are the biggest suckers for such debates

Because we do not know head to foot of a good debate topic, and thus get our nickers in a twist about debates that are useless and in fact harmful to people.

peace to you.

May you live long and prosper

May you have great spiritual experience during this holy month.

Amen

I agree with you to some extent, but when someone tries to be aggressive/attacks you in a certain way, then you attack back in the same way.

In this case. Some Europeans tried to attack Muslims and Islam, the guy tried to defend/attack in the same way by giving a counter narrative. I guess, those are just mind games or psychological warfare, whatever you call it...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Really this kind of idiot and mis-informed person is being invited in oxford now a days !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Hassan's rebuttal was on point. This lady hardly even said anything; it was just the same old rhetorical emotional drivel.


As it turns out -- the team supporting Islam as a peaceful religion won.....by a very significant margin.


This Oxford Univ. excersize should be educational for everyone. 2 opposing sides which despite major differences and despite racism and xenophobia -- there was no firing or bombing. The reasonable and logical side won and audience members became educated just by listening and the tens of millions of viewers on the YouTube also heard the arguments. People who are stubborn in their views will not likely change them - but at least both perspectives were given one after the other.

this is what the "silent majority" should be doing -- but of course western media agenda to paint Islamic countries in negative light would continue - and the minority idiots or "Talib@stards" (as 'FaujHistorian' calls them) keep giving them the ammos

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

@FaujHistorian .. I got a very simple question for you to answer in Yes/No. Do you believe that Islam's founder Mohammed was a peaceful man?

A little information for you, since you're slightly mistaken -- at no fault of your own:


Our deen ISLAM was not "founded" by our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) --or any human for that matter.

That's your first mistake which needs to be noted.

Our deen ISLAM is --as we adhere to it-- the religion per Allah SWT and the Revelations of Quran were revealed to our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) through the Angel 'Gabriel' --a Holy Figure for all the Abrahamic faiths -- Islam, Judaism, Christianity.

Quran revelation started by year 610 AD and continued through year 632 Ad (year of Prophet Mohammad's [PBUH] death)


Long story short - Islam is Allah SWT's religion and way of life; Al-Nabay (PBUH) was the Messenger of God (Rasool Allah)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I think you are just skirting the issue with stawman arguments. My question was straightforward and complete.
Mohammed came 6 centuries after Jesus and 10 centuries after Buddha. So, the concept of peace and non-violence was centuries old in this world even at Mohammed's time. Also, the teachings of Mohammed are, believed by Muslims, to be eternal and infallible over time. His life examples are not restricted to time or geography and Muslims are expected to emulate it all times and places.

Nobody said those concepts never existed; in fact this was a point even made by Mehdi Hasan -- that all religions are essentially the same in that they emphasize peace and compassion and understanding.

If you read the Quran and other literature by respected Islamic scholars, you will learn that a lot of Prophet's (PBUH) way of life is still applicable today. How much one takes from it or doesnt take from it -- well, that's up to the subject no?


I'm surprised nobody in this debate or in this thread has brought up one very important aspect of Islam with regards to 2 things


---Jihad (often spoken about, but often mis-understood thanks to propaganda and mis-use by extremists)

---IJTIHAD (which often goes un-talked about; an important corner-stone when understanding that Islam is about RATIONAL ANALYSIS) -- consensus.

 

[krash]

yaara I like your posts.


But this thread is lame. Sorry to say.


People should not participate in discussions such as:


1. Islam is/is not peaceful
2. Hinduism is/is not peaceful
3. Christianity is/is not peaceful



or worse

1. Quran is/is not peaceful
2. Gita is/is not peaceful
3. Bible is/is not peaceful
4. Torah is/is not peaceful


These are concepts and intangible "things", and you cannot associate "actions and reactions" to intangible things.


Pakistani Muslims (or Muslim origin people in the West) are the biggest suckers for such debates

Because we do not know head to foot of a good debate topic, and thus get our nickers in a twist about debates that are useless and in fact harmful to people.

On the contrary. If the intangibles weren't questioned and debated we wouldn't have philosophy, sociology, anthropology or even psychology. Everything is debatable and must be debated. It is the basic essence of modern civility, ethos, education, academia and, especially, religion. Everyone must be allowed to question anything and everything and other's must be allowed to answer these questions as best they can. If you don't question your not getting anywhere. And then one day some geniuses will tell you to abandon Ijtihad.

The problem comes when people start debating and following debates out of emotions, which directly runs opposite to the whole concept of questioning and debating and defeats the very purpose of them.

I agree with you to some extent, but when someone tries to be aggressive/attacks you in a certain way, then you attack back in the same way.

In this case. Some Europeans tried to attack Muslims and Islam, the guy tried to defend/attack in the same way by giving a counter narrative. I guess, those are just mind games or psychological warfare, whatever you call it...

When someone attacks you on an emotional bases or invokes emotions in you through his attacks the trick is to not get emotional. Only then will you comprehensively and systematically rip their strategy apart.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

On the contrary. If the intangibles weren't questioned and debated we wouldn't have philosophy, sociology, anthropology or even psychology. Everything is debatable and must be debated. It is the basic essence of modern civility, ethos, education, academics and, especially, religion. Everyone must be allowed to question anything and everything and other's must be allowed to answer these questions as best they can. If you don't question your not getting anywhere. And then one day some geniuses will tell you to abandon Ijtihad.

The problem comes when people start debating and following debates out of emotions, which directly runs opposite to the whole concept of questioning and debating and defeats the very purpose of them.

emotions, mightier than thou attitude -- and extremism (judge jury executioner) are the biggest problems here

actions of xenophobes and extremists go hand in hand - they are the ones pushing for clashes in ideology.

(in other words, they are the bastards)

 

[krash]

emotions, mightier than thou attitude -- and extremism (judge jury executioner) are the biggest problems here

actions of xenophobes and extremists go hand in hand - they are the ones pushing for clashes in ideology.

(in other words, they are the bastards)

Absolutely. And to a lesser extent the impotent "show watchers" excited to see the tit for the tat and not learning anything. As if in a football match, only there to support their home team .