Arjun News & Discussions

[p2prada]

That is not possible mate. Without the user involvement, the product cannot be improved. This is because ANY Army or Airforce always wants the best equipment available, to them it doesnt matter whether its domestic or not.

Case in point is the Israeli Merkava Mk1. It was a shitty product at that time, but it was forced on the Israeli Army, and thus the user once gets committed to the product, helps no end to improve it with the designer. With successive iterations the Merkava Mk4 has developed into a formidable tank, with no small help from their Army. Without them, Israeli Industries would not have been able to make it.

Firstly plz dont compare the economies of israel and india. We are at a different level.
Compare india to US or russia or even china. the user demand etc are the same. But, not the same as israel. The political and military scenario is different also.

Do you know howmany "experimental" programs exist in the US and russia.
EG: in fighters look at sukhoi. They have the berkut. Just because nobody is buying the berkut doesnot mean they will stop improving it or stop development altogether. The same with the Mig 1.44.

User involvement is necessary only if funds are not available.

But, in US, Russia, China, development of products continue even without the military actually buying the product. Meaning User involvement is at best consultation wrt experimental products.

The same way LCA started of as a TD. Look at our own Trishul, it is only a TD. But, we will have plans for it once we get our act right. Maybe more experience in seeker technology will help us bring out the Trishul at a much later date along with rohini/maitri etc. Meaning none of the products in research in india are dead. All WILL see the light of day. It will take time though. But, they dont require User involvement for funding.

Without the IAF accepting LCA, it would mean a dead project, and everything learned would be wasted. Technology needs to be constantly updated, if it stands still, the next time we attempt to develop a fighter(manned or unmanned), we would have to go through the SAME development curve, as we would not have the relevant technologies of that time. It is unfortunate, but true. IAF would have to buy the LCA in numbers, such that it cant be neglected by the IAF, and also such that it doesnt compromise on their ability to wage war. The first product has to be accepted always.

Again you are only looking at user involvement with respect to funding. If IAF takes the LCA, they will put more resources into it. But what it really means is that IAF will ASK DRDO to improve it. DRDO will be forced to come out with newer models and technologies. But, you fail to see that LCA will have a MK2 and a MK3 version even if IAF does not participate wholeheartedly.

DRDO has promised to come out with improved versions with upgrades like TVC and AESA. No doubt it will happen. Let IAF buy a MK2 or MK3 version of the LCA. Why on earth should IAF buy a TD with no proper technologies assimilated. Our radar and engine are not ready yet. It will take years to just induct the engine completely.

Self sufficiency and indigenous is a GOVT of INDIA AGENDA and not some company(DRDO) policy. Defence ministry will force investment into R&D and force the services to buy from indigenous products. But, right now, leave the IAF alone. Atleast untlil the next blocks of LCA are out.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Is their even any need for further discussion on ARJUNK? its just waist of time and bandwidth. The Indian army desperately want T-90s NO ARJUNs.

 

[p2prada]

But you some how know that DRDO is making excuses how?

GTRE failed at the kaveri. Thats why further development is carried out by Snecma. This clearly says FAILURE.

DRDO cannot catch up with foreign developers. They blame failures on the services mainly based on change in requirements. The reporters hype up the story and potray DRDO as the hero and the services as the villians. Typical blame game. The services have been waiting over 20 years for the LCA and ARJUN to materialize ever since they were sanctioned in the 90s. Change in requirements HAVE TO TAKE PLACE over such prolonged periods.

Dont mess the things tell me how this 10-15 years figure came from? no need for f 15 or F 22 BS

You are the news digger in the forum. Dig it out. Russians are planning to stop development on the T-72, T-80 and T-90. They are currently working on the T-95. T-95 is said to be a "new generation tank." It is supposed to have a 152mm gun capable of firing anti-tank missiles at ranges of over 7000metres. Induction will take place after 2010. The russians also want unmanned tanks developed by 2020. 2020 is only 12 years away. Therefore the figure of 10-15 years. Any more doubts???

So what is the way out of it?

There is no way out. We can afford only 1 engine development at a time. The US can do 10 at the same time. ECONOMY CLASS.

And that is why they never get anything on time.

Wrong, DRDO never delivers on time. Look out for R&D lifecycles in india and the rest of the world. The money we spent on R&D is adjusted with inflation every time. The rest of the world finishes tank development in 5 or 6 years. Only we take more than 10 years. IA only furbishes new requirements due to change in time and technology.

Why they are going ahead with sukhois?

They have migs, now they are going for sukhois. Like Su-33,Su-34, Su-35 etc.
Su-27 airframe is a new design. MIG have to come out with a newer design too. They dont have the money to fund new projects.

Not product comes with 100% defect proof from the first day. After testing also lot of improvements got done. that is why the concept of MLU exist. If you don't get the product in to the service you industry will never learn any of those.

Again not necessary. Regular testing of TDs will ensure what is required for MLUs. We use computers now. Simulation man Simulation. You are talking about 30 years ago.

So you will nevery buy anything then why the money is getting wasted scrap the whole damn thing and keep buying from outside.

GoI is following the policy of self reliance. It is not related to buying TDs for PRIDE. So, scrapping is out of the picture.

But you are not getting it and not working on building domestic also what is the end result.

Hogwash. Pinaka is domestic. Who says we are not working domestically.

What are you trying to prove? Arjun is a failed product?

Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.

What? only needs funding? And then you say that this product is not useful then why you need funding? A vicious circle.

Funding is needed to make the product better. DRDO is not in it for profit. DRDO and GOI are trying to prove to the world that india can build good products without outside assistance. It is our cue for being accepted as a global power.

You are comparing different class of fighters so obviously you will not get any clear picture.

Then compare F-16 to the LCA. LCA is not at the same level.

Obviously I can't comprehend you are just talking in air like just ONE PLANE each plane is different each has a different requirement each fulfills a different role each requires a different training. You can't just jump around by saying ONE PLANE.

You are talking logistics. I am talking about the product. If you are given an option between Mercedes and BMW which will you choose? Now choose based on car performance, handling etc. this is what i meant. What you meant is the way it is going to be used or the role.

What you are talking about is. BMW is good for racing and Mercedes is good for luxury and are completely ignoring the engine performance, handling etc.

Oh till that time it is a useless piece then.

It is useless to the IAF. But useful to DRDO.

There is no such thing as complete self sufficiency in space - quite a few of the components are procured from abroad and assembled here to allow a particular mission profile be it remote sensing ,communication or chandrayan

Yes, it also includes ALL the WIRING. Did you know that ALL WIRING in satellites are imported.

Having said that PSLV has the maximum indegenious component till date almost all basic systems are made in India -GSLV MK3 wil be even better

Regarding cryogenics as used in GSLV program only (PSLV ) does not use a cryo stage everything is being done from scratch or rather fundamentals here in India -the rocket engines ,the vacuum jacketed multilayer insulated piping system fro liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping ,the liquid oxygento liquid nitrogen sub cooling heat exchanger ,the liquid nitrogen vaporizer for payload bay purging before launch ,the associated control system and development of operating logic ,the turbo pumps ,the combustion chamber etc etc -in short GSLV mk3 will be the most indegeniuos of all rockets till date and also most powerful.

We were only talking about cryogenic engines. Not about GSLV and PSLV. we have been using russian engines. The recent test with indian engines failed. A new test will be held in 2009, with indian engines.

How you will come to know the effectiveness of the products wnill using them in live services?

Dude, we have not even built our own SNIPER rifle. Our small arms industry is BACKWARD.

R&D is done to develop a product? A product is based on a set of requirements. Once a product is made it amy/may not fulfill all the requirements but just based on this you can't dump the product especially if it is your first product.

Funding will take care of it. New Blocks have to be developed.

Also you pay for there R&D in the money you pay them.

It is going to take years for us to develop the same products thats used in F-16s etc. do u think we can develop an AESA on our own, when we cant even develop a satisfactory MMR.

How prove it.

China developed the Type 99 MBT. But, they cant induct more than 200-300. Even China cant handle such modern MBTs. Do you know that the Type-99 is lighter than the ARJUN by 5 tons?

But they have inducted 1500 Type 96, which are in the same league or inferior to the T-90s that we have.

Anyways, ARJUN costs $3.2 million while T-90 costs $1.6million. You do the math. maintaining ARJUN is even more expensive.

What are the reasons?

MONEY MONEY MONEY. Either funding or kickbacks or politics. Who knows?

Exactly my point is the DGMF is messing around without having any idea about what they want and wasting the money.

They have an idea about what they want.

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
[
B]"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation. [/B]

This proves my 10-15 years theory.

No your line was this that CELRON are outdated. Now you are taking complete turn here check you statement again

True. But I just used your quote to prove my point. Thats all. IA doesnot need heavy MBTs.

You are simply saying till the point I will get a phren maal i will only buy that till the time all domestic maal is a crap.

Until the domestic maal reaches a certain level of maturity.

You have not done anything except making baseless arguments

All you have done is misquote my points.

So all the products are tested and 100% this is what you are saying? then how the electronics stooped working and AC is needed? Now AC is not eating in to the budget?

AC is not expensive. Even the cooling suits need maintainance.

Now this china angle... where the hell china and India are going to see tank wars? in himalayas? And what is that new generation of tank any ways? They will keep deciding and keep changing the requirement and that will again end in a disaster

The competition will be technological and economical and not military.

When you don't want MK1 then what is the guarantee you will like the MK2 or Mk3

DRDO has to prove it.

How this magical figure of 30 years reached?

Research and figure it out. Or is it that you have your own figures???

So you are saying just waste the taxpayer money for something that is not going to see the light? What sort of logic is this?

It proves technological capability. More than just a good reason. We can be partners in any future russian or israeli tank development instead of just the clearing bills for research.

DRDO is losing the valuable experience gained in developing a product which is not going to get inducted in sufficient numbers.

Selling will not matter when you are out to prove technological capability. The experience will help us in JVs.

You need to start some where. Try to understand the word START. Is it so difficult to understand?

Start researching. Build beter products. Markets will open up. If not in india then outside india.

 

[p2prada]

Oh and you are the only ONE here

Whatever!!

How you know this is the highest point here?

I have reasons enough to believe that all future tank developments will push it to a new generation of tank warfare. Manned tanks are a dead concept.

And you are not getting what I am trying to say. You are just running with the best of the best of the best funda.

As usual, another misquote.

The point is a 58.5 ton vehicle gives you more crew protection the tank crews for army is like pilots to IAF these are rigorously trained and very precious resource in case of a hit on 46 ton vehicle which does not have a separate compartment for keeping explosive will make usre that no one survives whereas the 58.5 ton vehicle will ensure that they survive now which cost is higher?

The probability for india to go to war is less than 1%. Do u expect IA to include tanks in its inventory that can push its maintainance bill by 2 or 3 times. ARJUN is still expensive.

And without proper testing then found that those does not perform teh role that they are supposed to do. For the same reason the domestic product was rejected.

Money.

What? How you came to know this never heard of it any where.

India is not rich boy. Or are you hearing this for the first time too. ARJUN is already twice as expensive. Do the math.

Now this is ridiculous read that post again oh you had not read that till now read the excerpt

What you quoted proves that LCA is still a TD. FOC in 2012. Talk about induction after FOC is given. 20 fighters in IOC is for testing similar to the 14 ARJUNS given to IA.

How this 10 year and Blk 52 come from? On what basis you will compare? Enlighten me pls.

Oh! So you believe, DRDO will develop AESA and TVC in far lesser time. 10 years is simply too flawed then. Make it 15 years. maybe 20 years.

You are naive to believe technologies like supercruise, TVC and AESA can be developed overnight. We dont even have a MMR or a working engine to power the LCA, let alone TVC, supercruise and AESA.

You just said so many planes? Are they similar? On what basis they are similar? Do they perform the role of LCA?

They OUTPERFORM the LCA in any given environment or scenario. LCA is far from ready. LCA, JF-17, J-10 are all "poor mans" planes. They dont compare to the fighters i mentioned.

already posted the excerpt read it and then reply.

I will say it again. The 20 planes inducted are not for operations against the enemy. FYI, the LCA will be based in Kerala. That is something like 2000km from the border. LCA wont even reach the border. The LCAs were inducted for flight testing by IAF. Thats all. It is not called full fledged induction.

You cant fight a war with 20 LCAs and 14 ARJUNs.

 

[Contrarian]

I see your point. But the there is another way to solve the problem. The Users in our case, dont want any indegenous equipment, barring the Navy, the 2 services are quite willing to accept foreign equipments without the rigour of testing as they do for Indian products.

The User just doesnt want to get involved with the lab, this has been a case time and again. They give an idea of what they want, and halfway through they change it. There is no long term vision of the equipment they require or need or even want. Forcing the equipment on the user ensures that they do act as consultants and seriously help in rectifying the problems by way of first hand user experience-something they dont do right now.

 

[nitesh]

GTRE failed at the kaveri. Thats why further development is carried out by Snecma. This clearly says FAILURE.

DRDO cannot catch up with foreign developers. They blame failures on the services mainly based on change in requirements. The reporters hype up the story and potray DRDO as the hero and the services as the villians. Typical blame game. The services have been waiting over 20 years for the LCA and ARJUN to materialize ever since they were sanctioned in the 90s. Change in requirements HAVE TO TAKE PLACE over such prolonged periods.

Again you are cribbing without any knowledge of what is happening check the post no. 643 in LCA thread.

You are the news digger in the forum. Dig it out. Russians are planning to stop development on the T-72, T-80 and T-90. They are currently working on the T-95. T-95 is said to be a "new generation tank." It is supposed to have a 152mm gun capable of firing anti-tank missiles at ranges of over 7000metres. Induction will take place after 2010. The russians also want unmanned tanks developed by 2020. 2020 is only 12 years away. Therefore the figure of 10-15 years. Any more doubts???

Arjun fires LAHAT which has a range of 8km. This is seriously a news to me of T 95 getting inducted in 2010 I googled couldn't find out. As per as my news goes this is development time estimated for a new tank not induction time.

There is no way out. We can afford only 1 engine development at a time. The US can do 10 at the same time. ECONOMY CLASS.

Yeah so this is the reason to keep cribbing uselessly

Wrong, DRDO never delivers on time. Look out for R&D lifecycles in india and the rest of the world. The money we spent on R&D is adjusted with inflation every time. The rest of the world finishes tank development in 5 or 6 years. Only we take more than 10 years. IA only furbishes new requirements due to change in time and technology.

Too generalized statement not making sense to answer.

They have migs, now they are going for sukhois. Like Su-33,Su-34, Su-35 etc.
Su-27 airframe is a new design. MIG have to come out with a newer design too. They dont have the money to fund new projects.

Oh so they failed to design something impressive right?

Again not necessary. Regular testing of TDs will ensure what is required for MLUs. We use computers now. Simulation man Simulation. You are talking about 30 years ago.

What simulations are you talking about?

GoI is following the policy of self reliance. It is not related to buying TDs for PRIDE. So, scrapping is out of the picture.

Who told to buy TD's read I have posted the excerpt above for you

Hogwash. Pinaka is domestic. Who says we are not working domestically.

There is a huge difference between artillery guns and MLRS systems. Don't be too desperate to prove how insane you are

Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.

My argument is not to buy T 90. It is about accepting a domestic product.

Funding is needed to make the product better. DRDO is not in it for profit. DRDO and GOI are trying to prove to the world that india can build good products without outside assistance. It is our cue for being accepted as a global power.

Any company which is not in profit is a drain to the public money. When the work they are doing is not yeilding any result then why they are needed?

Then compare F-16 to the LCA. LCA is not at the same level.

On what points?

You are talking logistics. I am talking about the product. If you are given an option between Mercedes and BMW which will you choose? Now choose based on car performance, handling etc. this is what i meant. What you meant is the way it is going to be used or the role.

What you are talking about is. BMW is good for racing and Mercedes is good for luxury and are completely ignoring the engine performance, handling etc.

This is getting in to all sort of tangents. Plane can't be compared to cars.

It is useless to the IAF. But useful to DRDO.

If the product is useless for the end user then what is the meaning for it?

Yes, it also includes ALL the WIRING. Did you know that ALL WIRING in satellites are imported.

So what is the point you are trying to make?

We were only talking about cryogenic engines. Not about GSLV and PSLV. we have been using russian engines. The recent test with indian engines failed. A new test will be held in 2009, with indian engines.

That is why PSLV is used to carry the satellites. The program was not stopped because of this.

Dude, we have not even built our own SNIPER rifle. Our small arms industry is BACKWARD.

So what is supposed to be done? Where ever they are not able to develop a product import a product byt whenever they come up with a product it may not be as good as the comparative product in the market. But accept a product and try to improve over it.

Funding will take care of it. New Blocks have to be developed.

You are not getting a simple point here. You are saying that our industry has to come up with a fully world class product knowing fully well that they are not as developed as other country's industry are. You have to STSRT accepting the product then only a real experience can be gained you can't keep the product forever in the lab. Is it so difficult to understand?

It is going to take years for us to develop the same products thats used in F-16s etc. do u think we can develop an AESA on our own, when we cant even develop a satisfactory MMR.

It is already rectified no need to crib about that. It is coming out with some 2052 modules.

China developed the Type 99 MBT. But, they cant induct more than 200-300. Even China cant handle such modern MBTs. Do you know that the Type-99 is lighter than the ARJUN by 5 tons?

Lighter by 5 tons? So what?

But they have inducted 1500 Type 96, which are in the same league or inferior to the T-90s that we have.

Exactly so what is the problem with 200-300 arjun?

Anyways, ARJUN costs $3.2 million while T-90 costs $1.6million. You do the math. maintaining ARJUN is even more expensive.

It brings a lot of good features too like there is no need for an AC. have you included that cost here?

MONEY MONEY MONEY. Either funding or kickbacks or politics. Who knows?

Who is suffering out of it?

They have an idea about what they want.

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
[
B]"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation. [/B]

This proves my 10-15 years theory.

No it does not proves anything it just shows how confused the thinking is what is the guarantee that it will work? You are just wasting the present for a wishful thinking of future.

True. But I just used your quote to prove my point. Thats all. IA doesnot need heavy MBTs.

So you accept that you are twisting the words? It has not proved any point.

Until the domestic maal reaches a certain level of maturity.

Again you are missing a word called START. you have to START somewhere

All you have done is misquote my points.

You are not making baseless arguments

AC is not expensive. Even the cooling suits need maintainance.

How do you know that? Isn't AC requires power? From where this power will come? Does it not need to be protected from enemy fire? Does it not add to weight?

The competition will be technological and economical and not military.

So what is the point here? There is not going to be a tank war right? So that argument was baseless.

DRDO has to prove it.

On what basis? To some other thing developed by some one at that time? Oh come on again you are missing a simple thing called START. you have to START some where.

Research and figure it out. Or is it that you have your own figures???

I am not a future predictor

It proves technological capability. More than just a good reason. We can be partners in any future russian or israeli tank development instead of just the clearing bills for research.

What technological capability? When it is not getting accepted by the user?

Selling will not matter when you are out to prove technological capability. The experience will help us in JVs.

You are building a product for what then? Not selling it?

Start researching. Build beter products. Markets will open up. If not in india then outside india.

What is the way to say it is a better product when it is accepted by the home user. When the home user is not using it then why others will buy?

 

[p2prada]

Again you are cribbing without any knowledge of what is happening check the post no. 643 in LCA thread.



Arjun fires LAHAT which has a range of 8km. This is seriously a news to me of T 95 getting inducted in 2010 I googled couldn't find out. As per as my news goes this is development time estimated for a new tank not induction time.


Yeah so this is the reason to keep cribbing uselessly


Too generalized statement not making sense to answer.


Oh so they failed to design something impressive right?


What simulations are you talking about?


Who told to buy TD's read I have posted the excerpt above for you


There is a huge difference between artillery guns and MLRS systems. Don't be too desperate to prove how insane you are

Arjun did not fail. It was merely LATE. Had it come out before the T-90 contract was signed. Then something could be done.

My argument is not to buy T 90. It is about accepting a domestic product.


Any company which is not in profit is a drain to the public money. When the work they are doing is not yeilding any result then why they are needed?


On what points?




This is getting in to all sort of tangents. Plane can't be compared to cars.



If the product is useless for the end user then what is the meaning for it?


So what is the point you are trying to make?


That is why PSLV is used to carry the satellites. The program was not stopped because of this.



So what is supposed to be done? Where ever they are not able to develop a product import a product byt whenever they come up with a product it may not be as good as the comparative product in the market. But accept a product and try to improve over it.


You are not getting a simple point here. You are saying that our industry has to come up with a fully world class product knowing fully well that they are not as developed as other country's industry are. You have to STSRT accepting the product then only a real experience can be gained you can't keep the product forever in the lab. Is it so difficult to understand?


It is already rectified no need to crib about that. It is coming out with some 2052 modules.


Lighter by 5 tons? So what?


Exactly so what is the problem with 200-300 arjun?


It brings a lot of good features too like there is no need for an AC. have you included that cost here?


Who is suffering out of it?



No it does not proves anything it just shows how confused the thinking is what is the guarantee that it will work? You are just wasting the present for a wishful thinking of future.


So you accept that you are twisting the words? It has not proved any point.


Again you are missing a word called START. you have to START somewhere


You are not making baseless arguments


How do you know that? Isn't AC requires power? From where this power will come? Does it not need to be protected from enemy fire? Does it not add to weight?


So what is the point here? There is not going to be a tank war right? So that argument was baseless.


On what basis? To some other thing developed by some one at that time? Oh come on again you are missing a simple thing called START. you have to START some where.


I am not a future predictor


What technological capability? When it is not getting accepted by the user?



You are building a product for what then? Not selling it?


What is the way to say it is a better product when it is accepted by the home user. When the home user is not using it then why others will buy?

ZZZ. Sleeping. cant answer anymore. U dont understand what i m saying.

 

[nitesh]

I have reasons enough to believe that all future tank developments will push it to a new generation of tank warfare. Manned tanks are a dead concept.

He he he this unmanned thing. So man is not going to have any role then? You see lot of sci fi movies man

As usual, another misquote.

No it is correct quote. You are comparing the industry which is trying to build the first product with other industries which are building the products from a long time. You need to support your industry by STARTING to accept there products. Try to understand a simple word START. Is it so diffuclt to understand?

The probability for india to go to war is less than 1%. Do u expect IA to include tanks in its inventory that can push its maintainance bill by 2 or 3 times. ARJUN is still expensive.

How this figure of 2-3 time came in to picture? If the chances of war are so less then why so much equipment's are bought from foreign origin there is product home made cut the import to some level and work on domestic product.

Money.

What money that money has gone to total drain to support some other industry. Why can't that one (at least some portion) was used to support the home industry.

India is not rich boy. Or are you hearing this for the first time too. ARJUN is already twice as expensive. Do the math.

Are you joking? prove your point, you said that India have to sell all the tank inventory to support 1500 arjun? I never heard of it. What is this then? One of your dreams?

What you quoted proves that LCA is still a TD. FOC in 2012. Talk about induction after FOC is given. 20 fighters in IOC is for testing similar to the 14 ARJUNS given to IA.

Oh so this proves that you don't read anything. Come on it is not TD it is in LSP stage read it carefully. Don't run around with nonsense.

Oh! So you believe, DRDO will develop AESA and TVC in far lesser time. 10 years is simply too flawed then. Make it 15 years. maybe 20 years.

No body has a working AESA except USA. So all others have stopped using there products. F 16 does not have TVC and neither does LCA is going to have it is not a necessary feature for single engined plane. Google the work done on T/R modules of AESA by DRDO. Super cruise has to be included from design stage in a plane. No other plane except F 22 have proven super cruise capability.

You are naive to believe technologies like supercruise, TVC and AESA can be developed overnight. We dont even have a MMR or a working engine to power the LCA, let alone TVC, supercruise and AESA.

Super cruise is not used by 4th generation plane. AESA is not operational anywhere except USA. TVC is used in twin engined planes. Oh so DRDO has not worked on TVC?

They OUTPERFORM the LCA in any given environment or scenario. LCA is far from ready. LCA, JF-17, J-10 are all "poor mans" planes. They dont compare to the fighters i mentioned.

They are not poor man's plane it is start of making a plane it need not to outperform the existing ones for day 1. Some where there has to be a START.

I will say it again. The 20 planes inducted are not for operations against the enemy. FYI, the LCA will be based in Kerala. That is something like 2000km from the border. LCA wont even reach the border. The LCAs were inducted for flight testing by IAF. Thats all. It is not called full fledged induction.

But a start is happening, and that is what is needed and you keep improving the product.
And by the way these will be defending the nuclear plants coming in that vicinity from the chinese coming from myanmar side.

You cant fight a war with 20 LCAs and 14 ARJUNs.

Exactly induct them in numbers and then you can fight a war with them.

PS: check the PM.

 

[nitesh]

Is their even any need for further discussion on ARJUNK? its just waist of time and bandwidth. The Indian army desperately want T-90s NO ARJUNs.

Hey we just put some life in the thread Isn't it a big achievement.

 

[p2prada]

I see your point. But the there is another way to solve the problem. The Users in our case, dont want any indegenous equipment, barring the Navy, the 2 services are quite willing to accept foreign equipments without the rigour of testing as they do for Indian products.

The User just doesnt want to get involved with the lab, this has been a case time and again. They give an idea of what they want, and halfway through they change it. There is no long term vision of the equipment they require or need or even want. Forcing the equipment on the user ensures that they do act as consultants and seriously help in rectifying the problems by way of first hand user experience-something they dont do right now.

True. So u mean to say we need to introduce laws similar to china so that the services choose Indian products. I am OK with the Army going that way. ARJUN's a very good tank, albeit expensive. But, IAF requirements CANNOT be fulfilled by Indian R&D, atleast for another 10-15 years. But, we are still going forward with the MCA.

Plus, Can IA afford the sudden change in logistics due to ARJUNs induction?

DRDO cannot offer products of the same caliber as lockheed martin or Sukhoi can offer.

The fact is IA cannot afford the ARJUN and IAF are not entirely satisfied with the LCA. IAF was the one who pointed out that LCA was underpowered.

So, can u blame the 2 services from not inducting an expensive tank and a TD aircraft.



As for continous changes in requirements, the problem is that all technologies being developed to satisfy the requirements is being done for the first time by an R&D department that has no previous experience in aircraft development. So, they will obviously take more time than necessary compared to any american or russian R&D department. Time overruns are obviously a problem, and cannot be helped. But, at the same time IAF is being offered some of the best technologies available in the market, which DRDO cannot yet match. So, do u really want to blame IAF for choosing the F-16 over the LCA. Do u really want IAF to loose its tech superiority over its enemies by choosing the LCA over F-16 just to satisfy DRDO. Far from it.

LCA will mature as time progresses. LCA will receive funding as long as DRDO survives. LCA will see newer Blocks. LCA will become as advanced or much superior to the F-16. But, until that day, IAF can wait. As for DRDO, a little LOSS will not hurt it. Ultimately IAF and IA will be the principle customers of DRDO.

So, why rush the inevitable?

 

[nitesh]

ZZZ. Sleeping. cant answer anymore. U dont understand what i m saying.

Ok then stop cribbing

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Firstly plz dont compare the economies of israel and india. We are at a different level.
Compare india to US or russia or even china. the user demand etc are the same. But, not the same as israel. The political and military scenario is different also.

Do you know howmany "experimental" programs exist in the US and russia.
EG: in fighters look at sukhoi. They have the berkut. Just because nobody is buying the berkut doesnot mean they will stop improving it or stop development altogether. The same with the Mig 1.44.

User involvement is necessary only if funds are not available.

But, in US, Russia, China, development of products continue even without the military actually buying the product. Meaning User involvement is at best consultation wrt experimental products.

P2prada you are missing the micro level issues in view of a grand vision, good that you have a grand vision but the devil lies in the detail. Both in US and Russia defence is considered something of national importance among the general populace, compare this with India, how many laymen here can name a tank or an aircraft. Our psyche is such that despite the enormous wealth we will always limit our spending in defence thus little space for failures. It is in this scenario that Malay compares India with Israel. There is a limited budget in which CVRDE or DRDO operate unlike US which can sink exorbant amounts of cash into esotoric projects that get cancelled at the last minute. Already attrition is becoming somewhat of a major problem across defence labs add to this the reducing number of students from prmier institutes seeking DRDO as an option. It is in this scenario, I am suggesting we should support indegenous products where there have been considerable advances and investments.

IPF

 

[p2prada]

P2prada you are missing the micro level issues in view of a grand vision, good that you have a grand vision but the devil lies in the detail. Both in US and Russia defence is considered something of national importance among the general populace, compare this with India, how many laymen here can name a tank or an aircraft.

You are comparing social issues with military ones. The only people actively concentrating on defense related issues in US, russia and india are the military personnel. Anyways the civilians in these countries have only a very flimsy knowledge of weapons systems. Just knowing the name of a tank or jet makes no difference to military planners and politicians. Prestige is no doubt a booster for military activities. But it also equally backfires. So many protests are held in the US by peace activists who demand total disarmament. Just because the education in our country is lacking doesn't mean military technology is affected to a level as you think it has.

Most importantly, the general population's lack of knowledge also helps in propaganda as seen in india, pak and china; where the population blindly believes that their LCA, JF-17 and J-10 are the best aircraft in the world without a second thought. They bring pride and prestige in front of logic and reason.

Our psyche is such that despite the enormous wealth we will always limit our spending in defence thus little space for failures.

Exactly my point. We can only invest in 1 engine or 1 tank or 1 plane at a time. But, we also see to it that we WILL finish development because of the large amounts of money spent. That's why USER support is not required as Nitesh has been pointing out. DRDO is anyways building MK2 and MK3 versions of LCA. They will also start developing the MK2 version even without
the support of the services. Development of these technologies are a matter of national importance which supports GOI plans of being self sufficient in military technology.

It is not our PSYCHE that is preventing us to do more. It is CAPABILITY. We are only capable of developing 1 plane or 1 tank or 1 engine at a time. Not more like in US or Russia.

It is in this scenario that Malay compares India with Israel.

Yes, but you fail to see the geopolitical picture in which india and israel are in. You are comparing the 1960s policy(Israel) against 2008 policy(India). Can you even compare the economies of Israel and India?

Look at the scenario. Israel in the 60s was at war supported by a military(US) that was easily the most expensive to maintain. But, Israel couldnot afford the same lavishness that the US could afford on its military. And israel didnot have access to cheap soviet tanks in the 60s-70s. So, they HAD to build the Merakava. Plus the fact that the M1 Abrams was not as battle worthy as they said it would be when it first came out.

As for india, every capable defense company on the planet wants to sell their most sophisticated hardware to india, which is one of the largest economies(12th largest) on the planet and also has defense needs that might equal or even surpass the US in the future. India wants to be a world power. Israel only want to protect themselves. India and Israel are similar only with respect to terrorism. Thats it.

Already attrition is becoming somewhat of a major problem across defence labs add to this the reducing number of students from prmier institutes seeking DRDO as an option. It is in this scenario, I am suggesting we should support indegenous products where there have been considerable advances and investments.

IPF

Attrition is serious. But it is the pay packets that are forcing scientists to leave for greener pastures and not because ARJUN was not selected or something. DRDO cannot help it. It is upto GOI to pay them by increasing DRDOs budget.

DRDO is a non profit organization(not charity. DUH!!). It is supported financially by GOI through the yearly financial budget.

Have you seen RELIANCE or TATA being financially supported by GOI? NO!!

DRDO scientists will get better pay only if GOI wants to. The profits from ARJUN etc will only help fund other projects. DRDO is not a private company.

 

[Nishan_101]

SALAM,
i would like 2 ask a Ques that why don't tey stop Arjun project and even sell it 2 some oter manufature's so tat they could gain money that could be invested in some other TANKS like T-90's, T-95's and Challenger-II's(try fit wit some of their own system if competitive and reliable HAHAHAHA )and also concentrate on their license product , make it quality product so that the previous problems that occur with T-90's as well as T-72's upgrade won't come.Think before answerin especially Indians ok don't say it is not failed accept it and don't say no problem and no Hazitation and foreign readers u should try 2 carve my post 2 explain wat am i tryin 2 say i think those who r experience may tell it rightly ok

 

[Nihat]

SALAM,
i would like 2 ask a Ques that why don't tey stop Arjun project and even sell it 2 some oter manufature's so tat they could gain money that could be invested in some other TANKS like T-90's, T-95's and Challenger-II's(try fit wit some of their own system if competitive and reliable HAHAHAHA )and also concentrate on their license product , make it quality product so that the previous problems that occur with T-90's as well as T-72's upgrade won't come.Think before answerin especially Indians ok don't say it is not failed accept it and don't say no problem and no Hazitation and foreign readers u should try 2 carve my post 2 explain wat am i tryin 2 say i think those who r experience may tell it rightly ok

please translate and find a cure for smsitis