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^^ I can't understand what r u trying to say here. Can you please elaborate
See it is easy to blame the R&D establishment. Keep changing the GSQR also hadn't helped the cause. But see the NAVY how they are happy with DRDO work. You need to accept a product and keep modifying it. No need to run for foreign vendors all the time. Army is asking for a better tank. So why they are not able to finalize there requirement? Army wants to have more then 3500 tanks in it's armory. Why not discard some old T 72's and use arjun's indeed? All in all it has became a major farce but the end is nearing. The summer and winter trials are successful now so 12 are getting inducted. Some more orders will be given and work on next version will start.
There are no "old" T-72s. All T-72s are undergoing the RHINO upgrades which make them as lethal as T-90s.Why not discard some old T 72's and use arjun's indeed?
Dont compare the navy to the airforce and the army. The ship building in india is satisfactory enough. The navy is happy only cause the R&D work on the ships take the same time as done in other countries.
Please read the post no. 603 in LCA thread. The main reason is change in requirement. You can't hit the moving target. You have to induct a platform and improve on it.The airforce asked for a fighter by 2003. But, they take deliveries in 2015.
Just google how many times the GSQR have been changed.The army asked for a tank by 1999. They get it in 2008.
Then you will forever do the R&D only and never get any product.The requirements will obviously change. The R&D departments never completed the products in time.
Oh this one is brilliant then why keep DRDO only? Cut the crap now.The army always submit new requirements even to the russians, who always see through it to the end.
Why can't this be done with LCA? There is obvious difference between our R&D base and Russians. So again you are saying that DRDO is not required only when senctions are there then you do own work. Like iSRO cryogenic engines. We could not have made our own if there were no sanctions. Heard about param series of computers. Again cut the crap. And please prove your point here. What ever the crap you have said.For eg: the su-30MKI, will have a new engine, new radar and a new fire control system by 2010. Do u think DRDO can make such a promise to IAF in such a short time. Its impossible. The army and the airforce requirements will always change faster than the navy's.
You know the reason behind that? Obviously no. DRDO has worked and delivered.Secondly, the navy is much more technologically advanced than the PLAN (atleast for now). They also have a concrete road for future aquisitions. The same cannot be said of the army and the airforce.
Prove your pointThere are no "old" T-72s. All T-72s are undergoing the RHINO upgrades which make them as lethal as T-90s.
Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.Plus, the ARJUN is a HMTB, at 58 tons. It is not easy for any army on the planet to just induct heavy tanks and not make changes in operation and logistics. Do u expect the army to change its supply logistics for just a few hundred tanks. It is simply too expensive and utterly useless in peace time.
ARJUN is way better than the T-90. But it is simply too late.
Perhaps DRDO is doing too much at the same time - The missile defense programme , Arjun , LCA etc etc.
It would be much better off taking it one by one and on a priority basis maybe starting with the LCA project and making sure of one squadron posted in the south within the next one year or so.
then take up an all new tank project because no matter their upgrades the Arjun is still outdated.
Perhaps DRDO is doing too much at the same time - The missile defense programme , Arjun , LCA etc etc.
then take up an all new tank project because no matter their upgrades the Arjun is still outdated.
So work only in one thing this is another brilliance shown. Arjunis outdated? How prove it.
Indian Army to freeze Arjun MBT orders at 124 news
07 July 2008
New Delhi: Bringing a long festering internal debate back into public focus, the Indian Army has now said that it would not increase the size of its orders for the Arjun Main Battle Tank. It has placed an order for 124 of these indigenously developed tanks with the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi. According to the Army's director general (mechanised forces) Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj,is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT." "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That
Lt Gen Bharadwaj was speaking on the sidelines of an interactive session with defence private industry at CII here. According to Gen Bharadwaj, "Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for a technologically advanced, next generation warfare some two decades hence."
The Arjun debate has become increasingly confusing, and bitter, as various parties involved, such as the DRDO (developing agency), Indian Army (end user) and even the ministry of defence, which has over all responsibility for all matters related to defence, have hurled charges and counter charges at each other.
While reports keep emerging about the Arjun being a 'dud,' equally emphatic statements challenging such assertions also emerge in the recent past, quite surprisingly, from within the confines of the ministry of defence itself.
In a nutshell, while the votaries for the Arjun tank claim that this is a thoroughly updated, and lethal, weapons platform which sports all contemporary features, its critics trundle out oft-heard complaints of shoddy quality and outdated features. What is indeed certain is that the Indian Army is yet to carry out the promised comparative trials of the Arjun MBT with contemporary systems already inducted for service, such as the T-72 and the T-90S MBTs. Such a 'shoot-out' would indeed have provided a lot of answers to old questions.
The Army has already increased its orders for Russian T-90S tanks by another 330 units, which it ordered last year, over and above the 1000 it already has on order.
Meanwhile, Gen Bharadwaj also announced that the Army, along with CII, would organize a two-day international technology seminar on Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) here on 22 and 23 July to discuss global challenges in designing, developing and producing FMBT and FICV.
Gen Bhardwaj said the seminar would debate the kind of MBT the Army needed, considering that might of the military was judged by both deterrent and offensive capabilities of mechanized forces and on the quality and quantity of equipment.
"Time has come to reassess our requirements. We are at the threshold of formulating qualitative requirements of FMBT and FICV. This is the future, as it takes about a decade for completing the process of designing and being ready with a prototype of FMBT and FICV. It could take another 5 to 10 years to finally induct futuristic MBTs and ICVs into the forces," he said.
The meeting would also provide defence planners, end-users, scientists and both private and public defence manufacturers a holistic view of applicability of tanks, be they heavy, medium or light, and wheeled or tracked vehicles in modern warfare.
"Considering India's expanding strategic reach and widening global standing as a military power, future armored vehicles should be capable of performing roles during out-of-area contingencies beyond its territorial boundaries," Bharadwaj said.
The meet would also try to provide defence industry an insight into the aspirations of the mechanized forces and try to gauge their capability to meet Army's future requirements.
Apart from looking at varying global perceptions on use of armored vehicles, the seminar would identify critical emerging technologies in the field to meet Army's requirements of FMBT and FICV. Already, seven foreign countries have confirmed their participation in the seminar including US, Israel, Russia, Germany, UK and France.
It doesn' matter. The russians always show a tested product.Do you know what is the reason behind that? They don't change the requirement midway.
Please read the post no. 603 in LCA thread. The main reason is change in requirement. You can't hit the moving target. You have to induct a platform and improve on it.
But, have DRDO been able to deliver with the changed requirements. It is only an EXCUSE by DRDO.Just google how many times the GSQR have been changed.
Do you know Lockheed Martin spent billions on their product and they were rejected for Boeing's YF-22. Do u see American public cry foul over rejecting Lockheed?Then you will forever do the R&D only and never get any product.
Did I say DRDO is not required. They are required But they cannot deliver. They have to try harder. Make more products, even if the services does not choose them. Sell products that appeal to the services and work on others that are rejected. Why do u think India has no R&D industry. It is because R&D investments have no returns. There are no profits. And more importantly, Indian R&D cannot compete in the global market. There are always better products out there. All that we have done is participate.Oh this one is brilliant then why keep DRDO only? Cut the crap now.
Why can't this be done with LCA? There is obvious difference between our R&D base and Russians. So again you are saying that DRDO is not required only when senctions are there then you do own work.
Like iSRO cryogenic engines. We could not have made our own if there were no sanctions. Heard about param series of computers. Again cut the crap. And please prove your point here. What ever the crap you have said.
You know the reason behind that? Obviously no. DRDO has worked and delivered.
Should that be enough.Prove your point
Stop posting useless questions. Does this relate to R&D or ARJUN.Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.
You have to accept the product and keep improving it.
Then why army is needed in peace time? Again telling you cut the crap.
It's a slightly old article but relavent none the less , maybe it's not outdated as I put it but whats for sure is that it is definatly behind it's time and the Army limiting it's order definatly shows that DRDO stalled this an awful lot.
I meant that the tank is good. But, there are some design features like the gun turret which are still old. Like the rectangular armour for the turret while the M1, LA2 etc have sloped turrets to reduce the damage from hits.
Anyways the tank is a little too late. Very late. This time overrun does not comply with the armies requirements anymore. Which is obvious. DRDO needs to start developing a whole new tank. But, the army has still not given the requirements for a new next generation tank for the DRDO to work on since 2006.
In the end, DRDO is not doing any work. ARJUN has no buyers. And the Army policy makers are sitting on their a**es doin nothing
Check out how much T 90 was tested and how DRDO had helped in correcting there shooting ability. Now DGMF (I am stopping using the army term because I don't want to mix the common soldiers with the DGMF) wants to have AC in T 90 because the electronics fail in the heat of desert whereas arjun electronics work in heat without the AC.It doesn' matter. The russians always show a tested product.
The answer for this is just google the things before jumping in to conclusions . You have read the article right what it said was the LCA was a technology demonstrator and now getting a reality so it is not DELAYED as the media is running around. Regarding AoA the IOC is 20 degree and FOC is 22 degree. Check the kaveri program it has achieved a thrust of 83-85KN of afterburner thrust that is the same as the GE engine currently in use but they want 100KN engine. Check this in GTRE site about kaveri. But kaveri is getting used by Navy. So we are going to have our engines for our ships.The article doesnot post information about any change in requirement. The program director keeps saying that all criteria in the ASR have not yet been fully mastered.
500-600 more flights are still required to validate 3000 more test points. It means the LCA is still not a full fledged fighter. Do u expect the IAF to induct a fighter which only has a 20 degrees AOA. Far from it, no engine either.
All of IAF change in requirements are based on avionics. The plane has to fly first for the changes to take effect.
The program director keeps saying that ASR has not been fully met.
Check the history of F 16 A/B models they were famous to be known as widow makers but now they are one of the most feared planes? Do you know a simple reason why? Because forces supported the program.The russians, US etc are providing fully tested aircraft with state of the art avionics. Its not like the IAF has no other options except the LCA. The IAF will obviously expect the LCA to be as good as a F-16 or a Mig-35.
Read the response above. And stop BSThe IAF are customers. They are not going to feel pity for DRDO and buy substandard aircraft. Will you buy a Maruti 800 instead of the NANO to protect Maruti.
This is the worst excuse I have ever heard. Are you out of your mind here.Stop trying to protect DRDO out of pity for their "hard work." They still need to catch up to the world to offer military products to the Indian armed forces. They need to provide products that are on par or superior to US, Israeli and russian products. Then DRDO is IN.
Read the response above.But, have DRDO been able to deliver with the changed requirements. It is only an EXCUSE by DRDO.
Exactly and how much DRDO is spending? Again cut the crap.Do you know Lockheed Martin spent billions on their product and they were rejected for Boeing's YF-22. Do u see American public cry foul over rejecting Lockheed?
They have merged there capabilities to make a plane. Check the FGFA history.Do u see the russian public crying foul for rejecting the Mig and going with Sukhoi for their FGFA?
This clearly shows how arrogant you are. Do you head about pinaka? At what investment it is made? And you know Israel wants to collaborate in that project. Do you know the reason? Do you heard about ALH at what investment it is made? Do you heard about the Ready to eat food that you get in all the shops? It was made by DRDO for the soldiers and now they have given those tech to the companies like MTR and all. And now that revenue is getting used for funding the projects? Do you know about the life saving materials developed for high altitude operations? Do you know the composites used in LCA have a spin off that the people who lost there legs now get a very light legs because of the composites developed for use in LCA has found a way here. Do you know the the computers built for LCA has given birth to the "vikram" processors which are used in our GSLV and PSLV for guidance. And heard about the "Mayavi" EW suite developed for LCA? Check why israel is interest din it. Check the tech focus of DRDO of last 3 months in there site. Check on which stage they are for GaN based electronics.Did I say DRDO is not required. They are required But they cannot deliver. They have to try harder. Make more products, even if the services does not choose them. Sell products that appeal to the services and work on others that are rejected. Why do u think India has no R&D industry. It is because R&D investments have no returns. There are no profits. And more importantly, Indian R&D cannot compete in the global market. There are always better products out there. All that we have done is participate.
Useless troll, check the response above.DRDO can handle loss just like ONGC or IOL or any other state owned company. Have DRDO design more fighters and tanks. State of the Art designs that are on par with the rest of the world. Then we can talk.
From how many time the MiG29 is around? So what is supposed to be done here. Do you know that the lack heavily in composite technology. just google about our involvement in there FGFA and you will come to know what i am talking about here. Google why Israel is giving orders for composite material from India for use in UAV's.Look at the russian Mig-35. There are no buyers. So, what did the russians design the OLS and AESA radar for?? What is the use of changing Mig-29's airframe?? It is the harsh reality of R&D. Grow up and get used to it.
Define "The Best" which will be "The Best" foreverExactly. Do u want IAF with a "not yet ready" LCA or a fully equipped Su-30MKI. IAF has other suppliers. They will buy from the best.
From where you come across such things?ISROs cryogenic engines are still in the lab. Lets talk about them in 2010, when they will be first used.
What do you want here? You wnat to be US in some time? You know how much funding those organizations get? You arrogant people will just ask for "The Best" then why don't you go and live in "The Best" country f)(* off from here. Useless cribbersParam Series. How many do u know that have broken the top 10 list. Building A supercomputer is good. But, building the BEST supercomputer is something else.
Do you know that russians have a rule that come what may they will use only russian product? What is the reason behind that? Come what may they will support there industry. But because of BrahMos success they are changing the rule. Now only BrahMos is getting inducted in to there navy. Guess what is the reason?Thats what DRDO has done. They built A plane. They built A tank. But, IAF and IA are choosing from the BEST planes and the BEST tanks. Do u want them to buy anything lesser than the best available?
Exactly ban the sale of everything and you will see every desi maal getting accepted.Cryogenic engines and supercomputers are not for sale to India. So, that is a completely different topic.
They made promises. They made deliveries. So what?
What was accepted from DRDO like Ballistic missiles etc are stuff that the services cannot buy from other places. US and Russia will not offer ballistic missiles.
What is being rejected by the services is stuff that they can buy from other places with much more advanced features. US and Russia are offering some of their best birds and tanks.
I think I replied enoughShould that be enough.
You stopp questioning about capabilities of professionals and I will stop. what do you think you are who is question the credibility of some scientist?Stop posting useless questions. Does this relate to R&D or ARJUN.
You answered it correctly. We need indigenous capabilities as well. Everything is necessary. And regarding the technology developed founding the way in civilian spaces. I have answered already.Do u think we are actually at peace. Look at kashmir, NE, naxals, China, pak, BD, Myanmar etc. Even then, isnt it the sovereign right of any country to field an army. Even Singapore and Iceland.
Our Army is also used for relief work during quakes.
And the technologies developed indigenously gives you the capabilities to use the equipments used by Army without any sections.An army is used to prevent hostilities both within and outside a country.
Then you are saying there is no need for developing anything right? Comeon show some rationality. Don't behave like an immature kid.Not if you can get a better product elsewhere and with better improvements.
[You actually sound like a communist with your last line.] Why does the services HAVE to buy products from DRDO? Especially when they are not good enough.
this is pure BS.Will you accept it if some baker is trying to stuff your mouth with bread that you dont want. Will you accept it if some door to door salesman is forcing you to buy something you dont want.
So, Why support DRDO stuffing the throats of the services with useless things. Only the communists do that.(read China)