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Arjun Mk.II Tank Clears All Army Trials, Service Next Year

Army played it very well.They intendly sabotaged and extented Arjun Project and gave orders for T 90.Now when the Project Arjun is successfully finished they dont want any tanks not again .In between they also upgraded T 72.Corrupted Thugs.
I hope our new govtwill do something about it.


You cant blame it on Army alone. You just cannot use a heavy weight tank with the infra structure at that time. Army specs were clear to DRDO at that time.. They wanted a tank that is as the same weight of T72s and DRDO went with heavy Tanks.. The cannot wait till infra structure to developed to purchase a home made tank.. Thats why Army choose for T-90s other wise what would we have done with heavier Arjun Tank and weak infrastructure to support them? Waiting for enemy to come to us? T-72s were becoming obsolete and their upgrades were long overdue.. Upgrading them was a logical step because Army didnt have night fighting capabilities.
 
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Beause F-16 is different and JF-17 is different plane but your Tanks are third generation Tank and you are blaming your own Army of betraying country and choosing inferior Tank T-90 over great Arjun

So isnt the JF 17 a 4th gen fighter as well?
 
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Arjun Mk II Tank Clears All Army Trials Service Next Year - SP's Land Forces

The Arjun Mk.II main battle tank has cleared all user trials with the Indian Army successfully and now awaits a maintenance evaluation by the Army and, crucially, a detailed evaluation by the Director General of Quality Assurance (DGQA). The Army has on order 118 tanks that will begin delivery once these two final evaluation processes are complete, likely by mid-2015. The Phase IV user trials demonstrated trench crossing and step climbing capabilities of the Mk.II tank starting in September 2014. Last year, dynamic trials of 120 mm penetration-cum-blast (PCB) ammunition for MBT Arjun Mk II were conducted successfully at PXE, Chandipur.
The Arjun Mk.II will conceivably begin entering service in 2016. With the already inducted fleet of 124 Arjun Mk.I tanks in two regiments in Rajasthan, the Army will be set to operate a total of four Arjun regiments. But the good news for the Arjun programme potentially ends right here. As SP's reported earlier, there are unlikely to be further orders for the Arjun tank of any type. The total number (242 tanks) on order is far from good news: The DRDO has said that any order below 500 tanks (in a mix of Mk.I and Mk.II) makes Project Arjun a dead loss. This is precisely what it is likely to be, which is why products based on the Arjun chassis (bridge-layer tank, self-propelled artillery) or Arjun turret (Tank-X) are being pushed too. But for the Arjun tank itself, the fresh order could be a death knell. The Army is keen that the DRDO focuses on a futuristic main battle tank. Of couse, this Army-DRDO conversation continues at a time when the very efficacy of armoured land force is being questioned at the macro war-fighting level in the region.

The Army has shown markedly more confidence in the Arjun Mk.II than it did in the original tank. At Defexpo last year, the Arjun Mk.II was on public display for the first time, following its participation in the Republic Day Parade. It underwent two more critical trial phases supervised by the Indian Army, pertaining to mobility in water (medium fording), mobility across obstacles, missile firing and fresh regular ammunition firing routines. These rounds were undertaken with during the summer months, with a handful of test points completed by November last year, with final reports being compiled and completed in January 2015. Full user trials began in May 2012. The Indian Army had indented for 124 of the Mk.2 for two tank regiments, but has now committed to inducting 118 tanks. The DRDO had been pushing for an order of at least 300 Arjun Mk.IIs to shore up the programme and speed up production at the Heavy Vehicles Factory adjoining the CVRDE in Avadi. It's almost certain that won't happen. The Army simply has no more armoured appetite for more tanks.

Sadly, the economics of the programme lie in tatters. In 2008, the DRDO wrote to the MoD saying, "The DRDO is working on the development of the futuristic Mark II MBT with suitable technological upgrades, which can be introduced later after completion of production of at least 500 tanks of the present version. DRDO has tacit knowledge in this area of Combat Vehicle Engineering and possesses full competence in developing futuristic combat vehicles. Any battle tank has a service life of 30 years and goes through technology up gradation progressively. Since MBT-Arjun is an indigenous tank it is all the more easier to bring upgrades and in our opinion the MBT-Arjun will be a viable platform for the futuristic use as well."

For the Army, its internal planning compulsions have weighed heavy. It has refused to comply with an additional order, given that its resources had been committed to purchasing more T-90S Bhishma tanks from Russia for license production at Avadi. What the DRDO has managed in the meanwhile is to meet the Army's requirements with the Arjun Mk.II. The tank now incorporates enhanced firepower with Automated Target Tracking and greater variety of ammunition including gun-fired anti-tank missile, thermobaric ammunition; enhanced protection that include Explosive Reactive Armor, laser warning and countermeasure System, a mine plough, a remotely operable anti-aircraft weapon, a roof mounted driving seat; advanced land navigation system and enhanced night vision capabilities. As things turn out, the main missile to be fired from the 120mm main gun may not be Israeli after all. Sources suggest a new weapon being developed at the ARDE may be the fit.

But for Project Arjun, the implications of the end of trials are greater. In 2008, the DRDO had also noted, "The major imported systems in the tank are the powerpack and gun control system from Germany and Delft-SAGEM gunner’s main sight from OIP Belgium. The percentage of import content is 60% in the first lot of 124 tanks to be productionised, which will be reduced to under 45% with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30% with the manufacture of about 500 tanks." This indicates that the Arjun tank, ironically, remains largely a foreign product, both in terms of value as well as critical systems. This, despite the DRDO promising to totally turn the tables with greater order numbers.

Original problems with the Arjun Mk.I rose with the Mk.II too, though the capabilities of the new tank have silenced critics and test personnel. Weight was an issue with the Arjun Mk.II, significantly heavier than the Arjun Mk.I, though the DRDO has dispelled comparisons with the T-90S. "T-90S and MBT Arjun tanks are of different class. Both the tanks have their own special features. In MBT Arjun, we have more power to weight ratio, hydro-pneumatic suspension for better ride comfort and a stable platform to fire on the move, better quality class of Gun Control System and Fire Control System etc. Missile firing capability of Arjun was demonstrated. T-90S tank has missile firing capability and lower silhouette. Tanks of both the class are required by the Indian Army," the DRDO had said in 2008 during the big T-90S push.

On the DRDO's part, fighting for the programme will remain a priority, given the enormous skill investment it has taken to put the tank together and meet all of the Army's many demands. "Teething problems during the process of productionisation are inevitable. The process of TOT for the MBT will mature and stabilize only after 200 to 300 tanks have been actually produced by the production agency. Hence, we need to have patronage from the government and Army in terms of more orders for our indigenous MBT-Arjun. If the army does not place further orders for Arjun we cannot even amortize the infrastructural investments made by the government for its productionisation, thereby resulting in wasteful expenditure. The Army should place orders for additional 300 tanks before we can break even," said the DRDO six years ago in its most direct appeal to the government to intervene and force the Army to support the Arjun in a bigger manner. The DRDO believes Prime Minister Modi's 'Make in India' philosophy may help the Arjun programme get more aggressive orders from the customer, though the fact that the T-90S is license built in country goes against any perceived advantage in terms of economics. The DRDO still plans to revive its plans to push the Arjun project with the new government in order to amortize investment and perhaps allow for future versions of the tank.

Good job. Now DRDO should hire Russians to sell the tanks to IA.

You cant blame it on Army alone. You just cannot use a heavy weight tank with the infra structure at that time. Army specs were clear to DRDO at that time.. They wanted a tank that is as the same weight of T72s and DRDO went with heavy Tanks.. The cannot wait till infra structure to developed to purchase a home made tank.. Thats why Army choose for T-90s other wise what would we have done with heavier Arjun Tank and weak infrastructure to support them? Waiting for enemy to come to us? T-72s were becoming obsolete and their upgrades were long overdue.. Upgrading them was a logical step because Army didnt have night fighting capabilities.

That's not true, army asked for a 4-crew western type tank, it is natural that they will be in the size/weight category of western tanks. And T-90 was not a perfect tank for IA, it was an untested unfinished tank, IA gave it long time to mature.
 
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View attachment 189259

Arjun MK 2 will have more than 93 upgrades including the following:
  • Ability to fire Anti-tank missile through main gun.
  • Extra protection for crew through explosive reactive armor (ERA)
  • Thermal imaging system to scan and detect targets at night.
  • An automatic target tracking (ATT) system for pinpoint accuracy on moving targets.
  • Advanced Air defense gun.
  • Enhanced auxiliary power unit (APU) with a capability of 8.5 kw (compared to 4.5 kw of mk-1 version)
  • Mine Plough.
  • Advanced land navigation system.
  • Digital control harness.
  • Improved gun barrel with an Equivalent Firing Charge (strength of the barrel to sustained firing) of 500 rounds against T 72's 250 rounds.
  • Indigenous engine will replace the German engine of the 58-tonne Arjun Mark-I.
  • The integrated display system will have more capabilities.
  • Night sight of Arjun is developed by OIP senser systems of Belgium and SAGEM (France). Once spotted, target is electronically allocated to gunner for engagement and will enable the commander to search for other targets.
  • An un-cooled thermal imaging sight,developed by Instrument R&D located at Dehradun allows the driver to see upto 300-500 m. even on a pitch dark night.
  • Laser warning system developed by Elbit systems of Israel. It has the capability of 360 degree coverage and detects all types of incoming missiles.

this chart is so wrong.

So isnt the JF 17 a 4th gen fighter as well?

Both are from different classes... can you compare your under development LCA with your migs?

Arjun 2 is a quality-e-khalid ...

what is that? :lol:

:D

good night . Till we come with MK2 and knock knock ur door :cheers:,

Ay36irU.png


Good job. Now DRDO should hire Russians to sell the tanks to IA.



That's not true, army asked for a 4-crew western type tank, it is natural that they will be in the size/weight category of western tanks. And T-90 was not a perfect tank for IA, it was an untested unfinished tank, IA gave it long time to mature.

T-90 was an upgraded variant of the tested T-72!
 
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waste of money we are not going for a war with nobody ,why not spend the money where it's needed?why waste so much money on useless weapons and tanks while millions starve to death AAP will change the whole system we are going to work for the poor and make sure money is not wasted on such useless projects
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since when a party of delhi UT decide union govt policy? budjet?
 
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waste of money we are not going for a war with nobody ,why not spend the money where it's needed?why waste so much money on useless weapons and tanks while millions starve to death AAP will change the whole system we are going to work for the poor and make sure money is not wasted on such useless projects
idiots like you will ruin this country...this is same crap mentality that Nehru was suffering from and 1962 spanking is for all of us to see..gosh..what a promise this party(AAP) had shown...however thought process is backwards
 
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You cant blame it on Army alone. You just cannot use a heavy weight tank with the infra structure at that time. Army specs were clear to DRDO at that time.. They wanted a tank that is as the same weight of T72s and DRDO went with heavy Tanks.. The cannot wait till infra structure to developed to purchase a home made tank.. Thats why Army choose for T-90s other wise what would we have done with heavier Arjun Tank and weak infrastructure to support them? Waiting for enemy to come to us? T-72s were becoming obsolete and their upgrades were long overdue.. Upgrading them was a logical step because Army didnt have night fighting capabilities.

Then why did they asked for 4crew system?.T 90 is a 3 crew system.Now I think the govt decision for diverting defence purchasing was due to this corruption with Russians.
Incidents like sabotage was also took place during its trial.One was putting sand in its interior system.
Delaying in LCA program was our fault .That is why IAF is still looking for LCA for the replacement of mig 21.And that program is maturing fastly and perhaps we can see some export of that system.

But Army's approach towards Project was always disappointing .Now they want the so called FMBT by wasting all these investments in Project Arjun.There is a word in our language for this sort of behaviour .
 
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Then why did they asked for 4crew system?.T 90 is a 3 crew system.Russians
This is simple, the autoloader is seen as a weak spot on the T-90, it is both prone to failure AND inherently dangerous given you have live ammo in close proximity to the crew constantly. In the Arjun (and the Abrams) the ammo is stored in a separate magazine which, if hit, is designed to detonate away from the crew. The chances of crew survivability in the Arjun is many times superior to that on any Russian tank.

Again, it is a question of mindset. The Arjun has been designed in a Western ethos (heavier, larger, better armoured, more powerful, etc etc) whereas the vast, vast majority of the Indian Army's armoured corps would have been exposed to and served with the Medium class Russian MBTs (T-55,T-72 and T-90S), this is what they know and trust. I don't buy the corruption angle one bit (it may be there but playing an inconsequential role) but I believe it is about entrenched mindsets. Institutional thinking is hard to change and especially a military's. With more and more Arjund in service more and more will be exposed to it and its advantages vis a vis the T-90S and thus a stronger and stronger Arjun lobby will be created in the IA, whilst right now it is inherently going to be near 100% pro-T-90.
 
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This is simple, the autoloader is seen as a weak spot on the T-90, it is both prone to failure AND inherently dangerous given you have live ammo in close proximity to the crew constantly. In the Arjun (and the Abrams) the ammo is stored in a separate magazine which, if hit, is designed to detonate away from the crew. The chances of crew survivability in the Arjun is many times superior to that on any Russian tank.

Again, it is a question of mindset. The Arjun has been designed in a Western ethos (heavier, larger, better armoured, more powerful, etc etc) whereas the vast, vast majority of the Indian Army's armoured corps would have been exposed to and served with the Medium class Russian MBTs (T-55,T-72 and T-90S), this is what they know and trust. I don't buy the corruption angle one bit (it may be there but playing an inconsequential role) but I believe it is about entrenched mindsets. Institutional thinking is hard to change and especially a military's. With more and more Arjund in service more and more will be exposed to it and its advantages vis a vis the T-90S and thus a stronger and stronger Arjun lobby will be created in the IA, whilst right now it is inherently going to be near 100% pro-T-90.

Arjun has been designed in a Western ethos because army wanted it to be so, they should have thought about the weight, size, and mindsets while deciding what they wanted, now they cannot come back and complain about all these, not after billions of rupees have been spent on it. We as a country is not that rich to afford such luxuries.
 
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Beause F-16 is different and JF-17 is different plane but your Tanks are third generation Tank and you are blaming your own Army of betraying country and choosing inferior Tank T-90 over great Arjun
Did you not read?
The Arjun is heavy tank,
the T-90 like your alkhalid is medium tank. Tanks that can be transported via il-76.

The Indian army like the PLA has a need for 3 tier tanks.
Light, Medium and heavy.
The light tank is the next step.
Also the Arjun is twice the cost of a T-90 and Alkhalid.
When you order 200 Arjuns, you could get 400 t-90 for the same cost!
Why would India, RnD medium tanks, when Russia sells them liecence production of T-90 and further reseacrhes it?
On top of that the T-90 uses the same assembly line as the T-72.
 
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waste of money we are not going for a war with nobody ,why not spend the money where it's needed?why waste so much money on useless weapons and tanks while millions starve to death AAP will change the whole system we are going to work for the poor and make sure money is not wasted on such useless projects



Spend money where exactly? Buying fruits and vegetables from the middlemen to keep prices down?
 
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That's the problem, although that goes for many Indian members too who just claim about Arjun is better lets induct it in numbers. The important point as you pointed out is, the operational requirements of IA and how the tanks suits them. Arjun is better than the T90 in some areas, the MK2 upgrade has closed several performance weakpoints of the MK1, but the 68t weight will be a big operational problem and as shown in the Arjun thread ( Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 36 ), even CVRDE officials admit that. So it's good that the MK2 is much better than the MK1 in certain fields, but that doesn't mean it can be operated wherever the army wants to use MBT's. Arjun will have it's place within their doctrine, but the number of orders is not dependent on how many older tanks are there to replace, but on how many are needed for the operational needs.

On a side note, besides the Arjun vs T90 dicussions. The MK2 upgrade as said was meant to fix problems of the MK1 and logically the 124 MK1s should be upgraded to MK2 level. That however will increase their weight roughly about 10ts and they would face the same operartional limitations. That makes it rather interesting to see what IA decides now, if they upgrade them fully to MK2 standard or just take certain upgrades to limit the weight and keep them more variable than new MK2s.



That's what the Tank Ex offer was:

Tank Ex Prototype Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com


I still think that they should consider a new offer, based on the T90 chassis and Arjun MK2 turret.

Agreed, still there are members who bash army as Foreign Product lovers.

The world is full of obvious things, which some members do not observe.
 
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Agreed, still there are members who bash army as Foreign Product lovers.

The same that wants Dhruvs as VIP helicopters although they are far away from providing the operational capability of a Mi 17 or AW101, or that wants TATA / Mahindra VIP cars for the PM and President, rather that BMW's or Mercedes high protection vehicles, let alone LCA even in it's current capability over MMRCA... :rolleyes: It's simply not enough to have an indigenous product, it also needs to fulfill the operational requirements!
 
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Can we really afford such an expensive tank?

all in name of indigenisation. no real benefit to IA
 
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