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Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

Great bro.


bt i want to add one thing

Jf-17 a new fighter while Gripen a decade old

Im not trolling but only trying to reiterate MK point.
Why buy now ..wait for another ten Years then u can buy the latest then..the J-XX straight maybe Also if new means better why are u still buying F-16's :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: they are like 30+ years old.... if u say they are modified and evolved ... hell cant the Gripen be evolved (infact it has) also Gripen in my books is definitely more potent than JF-17 Blk I and as pass passes both will evolve so the gap basically will remain same ... but Gripen has had a 10 year head start to mature and hone its abilities .... while JF-17 is still groping in the Dark. (im not a JF-17 hater ... i believe it is a grt achievement for Pakistan) but this is my personal opinion.




:coffee:
 
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... ... JF-17 lacks Anti ship missile ... ...

According PAC release, the JF-17 can carry 4 x antipship missiles:

2e240er.jpg
 
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no one can denies that gripen is good aircraft than jf-17. and congrates that they r buying it. but biggest question is that gripen which going to sell pakistan is equal to Gripen IN(aircraft proposed for MRCA).Gripen IN has AESA radar and many more moder feature.
if gripen will sold to pakistan that's clear mean that gripen will rejected in MRCA.
 
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no one can denies that gripen is good aircraft than jf-17. and congrates that they r buying it. but biggest question is that gripen which going to sell pakistan is equal to Gripen IN(aircraft proposed for MRCA).Gripen IN has AESA radar and many more moder feature.
if gripen will sold to pakistan that's clear mean that gripen will rejected in MRCA.

No one is buying Gripen from Pakistan, nor it is on order by PAF.

We are just doing comparisons, that why we choose JF-17 and why not Gripen if and when it was on sale when sanctions were lifted.
 
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well i also agreee that gripen is better than JF 17 on any given day im against JF 17 because it is not goinh to harm any indian SU 30 and MRCA but it is equally best available option for tank buster role ground support naval support role and paf stilll not have fully building it they are only 8 to 10 in paf use we have to ger 250 long long way to go atleast till date we should have 50 JF 17 but im against it only because the late paf is doing but if we dont get gripen it wont hurt us alot because we have option to get twive better fighter jet than gripen J 10B which i dont think so any will say that gripen is better tha J 10 because J 10B is pure air to air and MRCA better payload it takes than gripen but we should get it on time
 
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The Gripen multirole fighter aircraft, developed by Saab, was first flown in December 1988 and entered operational service with the Swedish Air Force in 1997. It is planned that the Gripen will replace all current variants of the Viggen and Draken combat aircraft.

Gripen has been developed by an industrial consortium consisting of Saab, Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson), Volvo Aero Corporation, Saab Avitronics and FFV Aerotech. A joint venture company, Gripen International, has been set up by Saab and BAE Systems to market the Gripen for export markets. BAE Systems is building the main landing gear unit and wing attachment unit.

The Gripen demo aircraft achieved a supersonic speed level of above Mach 1.2 in January 2009 without using an afterburner, thus proving its higher range and fuel-savings advantages.

After showcasing the aircraft at the Aero India show during 11-15 February 2009, Saab launched its collaborative aeronautical partnership project 'Aeronautical Design and Development Centre' with the India-based TATA Consultancy Services (TCS). The design centre's first contract is to take part in the future design and development of the Gripen.

The aircraft is promoted in several shows including the LAAD (Latin America Aero & Defence) in April 2009, IDET (The International Exhibition of Defence and Security Technologies) in May 2009 and RIAT (The Royal International Air Tattoo) in July 2009.

JAS 39A is the single-seater version of the Gripen. A two-seater JAS 39B operational trainer variant of Gripen is available. The JAS 39B is equipped with the same avionics and weapons suite as the JAS 39A, with the exception of the gun.

JAS 39C is the single seat batch 3 and export standard version, which was first delivered to the Swedish Air Force in September 2002.

"Gripen is
a multirole fighter
aircraft."JAS 39C has colour cockpit displays, an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) and in-flight refuelling capabilty. JAS 39D will be a similarly upgraded to a two seater. In September 2007, the Swedish Government approved the upgrade of 31 JAS 39A aircraft to the JAS 39C/D configuration. The upgraded aircraft successfully completed its first flight in February 2009.

In January 2009, the Gripen demonstrator aircraft achieved the speed of Mach 1.2 and proved its supercruise capability.

The Swedish Air Force has also ordered 204 Gripen (including 28 of the two-seater version) for two operational squadrons, with deliveries continuing till 2008.

In October 2007, the Swedish government placed a contract with Saab for a Gripen demonstrator programme to develop an upgraded version of the JAS 39C. Saab has selected the GE Aviation / Volvo Aero F414G engine to power the demonstrator. The F414G has 96kN (22,000lb) thrust and will be fitted with full authority digital electronic control (FADEC). Saab Microwave Systems and Thales are developing an active electronically scanned radar (AESA) for the programme. The demonstrator, also known as Gripen NG, will be a flying testbed for further development of the Gripen and made its first flight in May 2008.

Saab and Selex Galileo reached an initial agreement for the AESA in March 2009. With high operational tempo, agility, improved sensor fusion and fully digital cockpit, the new generation aircraft will be a fully Nato interoperable multirole fighter designed for the future net-centric warfare (NCW) environment, Saab claims.

In November 1998, the South African Air Force ordered 28 Gripen multi-role aircraft (19 single-seat and nine dual-seat). Denel Aviation of South Africa will produce part of the centre fuselage. The first flight was in November 2005 and deliveries began in April 2008 and will conclude in 2012. Four aircraft were officially handed over to the SAAF in September 2008. The fifth aircraft was delivered in November 2008.

In November 2001, Hungary signed a memorandum of understanding for the lease of 14 aircraft – 12 JAS 39A single-seat and two JAS 39B. In February 2003, Sweden and Hungary signed an amendment to the lease contract and both the single-seated and the twin-seated aircraft were upgraded to C and D standard. The amendment also stated that Hungary will purchase the aircraft after the lease period. The first five were delivered in March 2006 and deliveries concluded in December 2007.

In June 2004, the Czech Republic signed a leasing agreement with the Swedish Government for 14 new Gripen (12 single-seat JAS 39C and two two-seat JAS 39D) for a period of ten years. The aircraft were delivered between April and August 2005.

In October 2007, Thailand selected the Gripen, with a requirement for 12 aircraft to replace F-5B/E fighters. An agreement to buy the first six Gripen (four 39C and two 39D aircraft was signed in February 2008. The Thai Government approved the remaining six Gripens in February 2009. The aircraft are to be delivered in 2011.

A new version of the Gripen aircraft, the Gripen next generation (NG), has also been developed by Saab. The Gripen NG comes with several attractive features including its full interoperability with Nato, high operational tempo, a fully digital cockpit with advanced features, network connectivity with multifrequency datalink and a modern avionic mission system.

Saab has offered Gripen IN, an Indian version of the Gripen NG, to the Indian Air Force. The offer was made in April 2008 in response to the proposal made by the Indian Ministry of Defence for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft. The company has also submitted a proposal to the Brazilian Air Force for 36 Gripen NG aircraft. Saab plans to manufacture these aircraft in Brazil, if it wins the contract.

Gripen cockpit
The cockpit is equipped with a Saab Avitronics EP-17 electronic display suite, with three multifunction displays and a wide-angle, 22x28 degree diffraction head-up display. The central head-down display provides tactical data superimposed on a computer-generated map. The displays on the left and right provide the flight data and the target data from the sensor suites.

"It is planned that the Gripen multi-role fighter aircraft will replace all current variants of the Viggen and Draken combat aircraft."BAE Systems and Saab Aerospace, with Denel Cumulus of South Africa, have developed an integrated helmet-mounted display (IHMD) system for the Gripen, known as Cobra. The IHMD is a development of the Striker helmet developed for the Eurofighter Typhoon. Cobra is fitted on the Gripen for South Africa. The Swedish Air Force also placed an order for the system in October 2007.

The time-critical systems controls (for example, weapons and communications) are grouped on the throttle and control stick for hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) operation.

The flight control system is a triplex digital fly-by-wire system from BAE Astronics and Lockheed Martin.

Fighter aircraft weapons
The Gripen has seven external hardpoints for carrying payloads: one at each wingtip, two under each wing and one on the fuselage centreline.

The air-to-air missiles include MBDA (formerly Matra BAe Dynamics) MICA, Raytheon AIM-120B AMRAAM and Lockheed Martin / Raytheon Sidewinder AIM-9L (Swedish Air Force Designation RB74).

Sidewinder, mounted on the wingtips, is an all-aspect attack, short-range missile for enhanced dogfight capability. Air-to-surface missiles include the radar-guided Saab RBS15F anti-ship missile and Raytheon Maverick missile. In July 2008, the Hungarian Air Force's Gripen fighters successfully test fired Sidewinder air-to-air missile.

Later versions of the aircraft for Sweden will be armed with the short-range Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T air-to-air missile and the MBDA Meteor beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile. Deliveries of IRIS-T began in December 2005. Meteor is due to enter service in 2010.

The Saab Bofors / MBDA Taurus KEPD 350 long-range stand-off missile, with a range of 350km, has been successfully flight tested on the Gripen.

In May 2008, South Africa placed an order for the IRIS-T air-to-air missile to equip its Gripen fleet until the indigenous Denel A Darter missile enters service.

The internally mounted 27mm Mauser high-energy gun can operate in an automatic radar-guided aiming mode. The stand-off dispenser is the DWF39 from EADS (formerly DaimlerChrysler Aerospace) and Bofors. The Bofors ARAK 70 rocket pod is cleared for carriage on the Gripen.

Countermeasures suite

Saab Avitronics is responsible for the EWS 39 electronic warfare suite, which has been ordered by the Swedish Air Force. EWS 39 is an integrated EW system that provides radar warning, electronic support measures and chaff and flare decoy dispensers.

Gripen sensors
The Ericsson PS-05 long-range multi-purpose pulse Doppler radar has air-to air operating modes covering long-range search, multi-target track-while-scan, multiple priority target tracking, air combat quick search modes, raid assessment and beyond visual range (BVR) missile mid-course updates.

The air-to-surface modes include long-range search/target identification, multiple priority target tracking, high-resolution, real beam mapping, air-to-surface ranging and Doppler beam sharpening (DBS).

The aircraft is equipped with a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) sensor and will have the Saab IR-Otis infrared search and track system (IRST).

Nine Swedish Air Force Gripens have been fitted with the Saab Avitronics modular reconnaissance pod, which includes a recon / optical CA270 infrared sensor. The system entered service in 2006.

"The Swedish Air Force has ordered 204 Gripen (including 28 of the two-seater version) for two operational squadrons."Communications

The aircraft has VHF / UHF transmitters and receivers from Saab Avitronics, and a Thales TSC 2000 identification friend or foe (IFF) system. An air-to-air data link allows real-time exchange of tactical data within and between cooperating air units.

In the attack and reconnaissance role, the data link allows radar-derived surface data to be transferred from one Gripen to a group of radar-silent attacking aircraft.

Engine

The RM12engine, supplied by Volvo Aero, is a development of the GE F404 engine from General Electric. A digital engine control system automatically monitors the engine parameters and automatically switches on the back-up systems if required. A condition monitoring system registers the flight data.

The air-to-air refuelling probe is retracted into the aircraft to retain the aerodynamic profile. The longer flight times achieved by using air-to-air refuelling results in the pilot needing a larger oxygen supply, so an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS) has been installed.
 
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The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multirole fighter aircraft developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry. Chengdu Aircraft Industry is part of the China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I). In the west the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon.

It is estimated that up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured. China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the army, navy, air force and strategic rocket force. The air force (AFPLA) has 200 fighter and fighter ground attack squadrons and 120 strike fighter squadrons.

The J-10 aircraft is considered as a replacement for the J-7 and Q-5. The air force currently operates about 250 J-7 (MiG-21) air defence and attack aircraft and about 500 Q-5 attack aircraft.

"The J-10 is China's indigenously built multi-role fighter aircraft."China formally announced the J-10 in February 2007. The existence of the J-10 was first reported in 1994, but the J-10 programme was started in 1988 and the first flight of the single seat aircraft took place in 1998. A two-seater variant made its first flight in 2003.

There are reports that the J-10 entered service in 2005 and is operational in single seater and two seater versions in at least two PLA air force squadrons.

It has also been reported that Pakistan will receive the first export versions of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by around 2010. China and Pakistan have worked closely on the development of another fighter aircraft, the JF-17 or FC-1 light fighter aircraft.

J-10 design
The structure of the aircraft is based on a tail-less delta (triangular planform) wing, foreplanes and a sweptback vertical tail. There are two, fixed, outwardly canted ventral (on the underside of the body) fins near the tail. The size and design of the J-10 are very similar to that of the Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi fighter aircraft, which itself is similar to and derived technology from the USAF F-16 aircraft.

The horizontal close-coupled foreplanes (larger than those on the Lavi) on the forward fuselage improve the take-off and low speed handling characteristics.

Weapons
The J-10 has 11 external hardpoints: five hardpoints on the fuselage with one on the centreline and a pair of hardpoints on each side of the fuselage, and three hardpoints on each wing.

The outer wing stations carry air-to-air missiles such as the Chinese built Python 3 PL-8, P-11 or PL-12 or the Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') or R-77 (AA-12 'Adder').

The PL-8 infrared homing short-range air-to-air missile is manufactured in China under a licensed production agreement by the China Academy (formerly the Luoyang Electro-optics Technology Development Centre) and is a variant of the Israeli Python 3 missile. The PL-11 is a licensed-manufactured variant of the MBDA Italy Aspide medium-range air-to-air missile.

The PL-12 missile is manufactured in China under a collaborative agreement with Russia. It uses the Russian AA-12 Adder missile technology configured with a Chinese-developed rocket motor to give a range of 50 miles and speed of Mach 4.

"In the west the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon."The aircraft can be armed with laser-guided bombs, the anti-ship YJ-8K or C-801K solid rocket powered missiles, the C-802 land attack and anti-ship turbojet-powered missiles manufactured by CHETA, and the YJ-9 anti-radiation missile.

A 23mm cannon is installed internally on the port side of the forward section of the fuselage above the nosewheel.

Sensors
The aircraft could be fitted with a forward looking infrared and laser target designator pod. The China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I ) has displayed an exhibition model of the J-10 fitted with targeting pods, which would provide the capability of the J-10 to deploy laser and satellite navigation guided weapons.

Possible pulse Doppler radar fits include the Chinese Type 1473 radar, Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10PD or Zhemchug, the Chinese JL-10A, the Israeli IAI Elta EL/M-2023 or the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo 2000.

Cockpit
The single seat fighter aircraft is also being developed in a two-seat variant as a trainer aircraft and as an electronic warfare aircraft. The first flight of the two-seat variant was completed in 2003. The cockpit is fitted with a zero-zero ejection seat.

The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system and HOTAS (hands-on throttle and stick) control on which the pilot has every control for combat incorporated into the two handholds.

Cockpit displays include a helmet-mounted weapon sight, a wide field of view head-up display and one full-colour and two monochrome liquid crystal multi-function displays. The avionics is served by a 1553B databus.

Engine
The aircraft is powered by the AL-31 turbojet engine supplied by Saturn Lyulka. The prototype aircraft and the first series of production aircraft are fitted with the AL-31FN developing 79kN and 123kN with afterburn, and which is the currently used in the Chinese Air Force Su-27 and Su-30 aircraft.

The more highly powered and advanced variant of the J-10, the Super-10, first reported in 2006, is fitted with the AL-31FN M1 supplied by Salyut. The AL-31FN M1 provides 132.5kN and is equipped with full authority digital engine control and a four-way swivelling exhaust nozzle for vectored thrust.

"It is estimated that up to 300
J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured."The aircraft carries a maximum of 4,950l of fuel internally, comprising 3,180l in the wing tanks and 1,770l in the fuselage tanks. A fixed refuelling probe for in-flight refuelling is installed halfway up the forward port side of the fuselage and just forward of the pilot.

Aerial refuelling of the J-10 is from a Xian H-6U tanker aircraft.

Additional fuel can be carried in auxiliary tanks on the centreline under the fuselage and on the innermost pair of the three sets of wing hardpoints.

Landing gear
The aircraft is equipped with tricycle-type landing gear. The nose unit has twin heels and retracts rearwards and the main units retract forward. The aircraft has a drogue parachute for landing.
 
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But what I like about JF-17 against Grippen is the cost factor. We are saving some real good money that can further be utilized in R&D.

Can you explain why you think Gripen would be a good choice for PAF in terms of costs? A comparable Gripen is nearly twice as expensive as a JF 17 and both are single engine fighters, so there won't be big differences in the operational costs either.



That doesn't make sense, because these are specs of Gripen NG, but this should be a comparison of actual 4. gen Gripen C/D and JF 17 b1.
 
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well but this gripen is not going to do more against F 16 blk 52 and J 10
 
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Here's the opinion straight from a defense procurement official here in Pakistan.
The PAF wanted a compliment to the Thunder and not another aircraft in the same category, Make no mistake. The Thunder was forthcoming NO MATTER WHAT.
The PAF wanted a deep strike fighter and not another air defense oriented multirole. The PAF still have a soft spot for the M2k since its an excellent bombing platform. And contrary to most ideas circulated at that time that the Swedes refused since democracy was not prevalent in the country( since they showed off the erieye at the same time to us), the PAF never wanted the Gripen, they evaluated it and decided they did not want it, especially since it was brimming with made in USA parts and the PAF has no interest in getting in the shackles of America again( How that doesn't apply to the F-16 is another thing I have no idea about).
Eventually the deep strike capability came with the block 52's which contrary to all statements and blah blah is exactly what they will be used for. And the Americans cant do jack about it that will effect war time operations anyway.
So specifically the PAF had no want for the Gripen at anytime, no need for an aircraft to do something which your fleet already had the capability of.
 
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santro agreed with you no need gripen because we have option for twice the better jet than gripen which is J 10
 
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Can you explain why you think Gripen would be a good choice for PAF in terms of costs? A comparable Gripen is nearly twice as expensive as a JF 17 and both are single engine fighters, so there won't be big differences in the operational costs either.




That doesn't make sense, because these are specs of Gripen NG, but this should be a comparison of actual 4. gen Gripen C/D and JF 17 b1.

Please read my post again. I did not say that Gripen is good choice. I said JF-17 is good choice because of low cost and low cost only.
 
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Hi,

Sir, as a thread started, it becomes your responsibility to take charge and put forward your analysis---


Secondly---to all posters---don't get mad at me and my comments---because you read something and just jump on it without thinking---with your pet answers---.

Now to the subject matter----comparing the Grippen to thunder---is like comparing the difference between day and night. The grippen was in 2002 where the thunder is going to be in 2013-----did you guys see what I am saying---what has been then and what is going to be.

When you talk about procuring defence equipment---you look at how seasoned the equipment is, how superior in quality the product is, what is the reliability factor of the machinery is, what kind of abuse it can take in combat and over the years of peace---how user friendly the maintenance and equipment transfer is, how easily it can be serviced.

The most important factor is that of parity---how close does it bring you to the enemy's best weapons system. That is the most important question of any equation. It is all about the enemy and you.

Because you don't live in ETHER---you are buying a weapons system for a reason---the reson being that your enemy has outdone you and you feel hopelessly outclassed---so you desperately need to make amends.

Now remember----this is open house---no strings attached---.

The grippen was available in 2002--03---the jf 17 in a similiar compliment not till 2013---.

If pak had forced delivery starting by 2005----we would have been 8 years ahead of where we are today.

To you young people I want to ask---does time ever mean anything to you at all---does the loss of time has any strategic meaning of loss to you. Is there any comprehension of 8 years time loss.

Do you people know that----Napoleon lost his major battle, BECAUSE HIS FLANK WAS LATE BY ONE MINUTE IN MOVING INTO ACTION---.

If you read the posters post again--he clearly mentions about the grippen then and jf now.

Next thing is---specs are meaningless in a manner----just because the specs of a HYUNDAI SONATA are the same as a HONDA ACCORD, does it put it at the same level of quality in material and workmanship, service and reliability of operation, safety---absolutely not.

Some of you are engineering students---put your thinking caps on---think and act like and engineer.

Just because two different nations are manufacturing a similiar equipment---doesnot mean that the quality is the same.

Mastan Khan
Brother as they say"hate the player dont hate the game".So is the case here. You have forgotten that the Thunnder has been avalable since 2006, but our financial condition has demanded that we induct it in 2009 with soft loans from our friend. It is not the fault of the plane if you develop it in a lazy manner(albeit for genuine reasons!!) So the fault lies with the Pakistani Govtt for delaying things rahter than the plane itself. So in 2008 we would have had all the tech that we will now have in the latter part of this yr. Personally I would not fret too much over the BVR issue.Believe me if push came to shove, PAF would have a BVR on the thunder in a week or 2.
Regards
Araz
 
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Hi,

First of all---I am very disappopinted at the quality of assessment by most of the posters. It is shamefully incompetent and full of inadequacies.

If this was your PHD thesis---you people would have failed miserably.

The examiner is not talking about any sanctions---the word sanction does not exist---. It is a simple stupid question---so intsead of keeping the answer simple and stupid---all un-neccessary scenarios are being brought out.

First of all Araz---if you read all my posts---I always talk about the time between 2002 and 2005---the reason being---pakistani coffers were full---we had money---Musharraf was openly talkiong about it----that time period is what I always emphasize upon the readers conveniently forget.

It was the kashmir earth quake that broke the back of pakistani finance---. Before that paf was running around everywhere seeking aircraft of their choice----that is when they had placed the order of I believe 72 F 16's---the earthqauke took all the money away---pakistan's bad performance in the war against terror turned away many a sellers---pak with its limited resources was left with the JF 17 only---that is what happened---they re-invested in that program and salvaged what they could.

In defence procurement---when you are facing an enemy the size of india---you always look out for equipment which is superior in nature, of a known manufacture, which has a proven service record of reliability and quality.

In this case---the examiner is not asking for any SOB stories from pakistanis---.

Pakistanis went after the grippen knowing it was an interceptor---because that is what was they needed---they wanted a tool to neutralize indian superiority somehow or the other.

Americans wanted to control us---why would they let the swedes sell us an fighter that can control the skies----the awacs is a different thing---even though it is a force multiplier---but it is the fighetr interceptor that rules the skies.

Even though the ACM in the posted video is talking about ---oh the grippen was not a multirole aircraft---I want to ask him then what were you doing over there in the first place---you were evaluating that plane for close to two years---what was the purpose of that in wasting the money of the national exchequer looking at something that the aircraft didnbot seek.

I am positive that the ACM is giving wrong statement to cover his behind----I firmly believe that the americans wanted us back in seat in the blk 52---with all the goodies---and carrot and stick---keep us using their equipment---they can keep an eye on us and control our movement.

The bottomline---any aircraft of western origin in 2002 till 2005 was better than the jf 17 of 2013.

Next Araz----when you go to war---that is not the time to go find a hook up for the BVR---the question is which BVR system---you have to have an operational bvr system is place---.

When you go do brain surgery---that is not the day to learn about brain surgery---it is the ten years preceding that surgery when you learn what you are going to do.

F86---it is your oppurtunity to learn---when you compare equipment---one has moving parts and the other has non moving parts---there is no technical comparison.

It is a silly comparison to compare fake chinese phones with mechanical equipment of known brand name.

Let me ask you---if your little brother was on his death bed with a sickness---what medication would your dad want to chose for him----the fake chinese name sake---or the real american---swedish---swiss---or japanese medication.

If your dad didnot pick up the fake chinese----then why do we pick up second grade stuff for our mother---why do we treat our child different than our motherland.

When you pickup a weapons system that has to go up against an enemy which can put two to three times thenumbers----then you ought to have an item that can last twice as long as the enemys---you oughty ot have a plane that has a very very short turn around time----an engine that works thousands of hours----a system that can be updated and upgraded on the run---a plane that can give out 110% every single time it goes out.

Lastly---even today---the jf 17 is still not independantly operational aircraft---it will be put into service while still being tested---it is still learing the job it has to grow into---it is year ---it will be another 2---3 years when this frame with its current equipment will start to prove or disprove its capabilities.

Right now all you hear is----THE MOTHER OF A NEW BORN BABY TELLING EVERYONE HOW PRETTY THE UGLY CHILD IS.
 
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