Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Nav]

Good morning guys..!
Can pakistan develop more advance avionics then current one with the help of Turkey? As we all know turkey producing some of Jsf avionics at home.

 

[SBD-3]

Good morning guys..!
Can pakistan develop more advance avionics then current one with the help of Turkey? As we all know turkey producing some of Jsf avionics at home.

at least I dont know....but what i can suggest is that JSF avionics would be too sophisticated for JF as JSF enjoys amazingly high sensor fusion and altogather superior tech base to support those avionics...JF is not at that level right now where it can mate with such avionics

 

[SQ8]

You would be surprised if it does, sensor fusion all comes down to the underlying architecture and hardware interface. Your Cell phone is a good example of sensor fusion, The camera on it picks up cues from its ambient light sensor and accelerometer(in the new ones) and then uses it to let you take the best possible picture.

The same goes for the Thunder, It has a power PC processor which has the ability to take data from multiple sensors and present it to the pilot in a single format. The actual limitations for this were programming protocols that would allow for all the componenets to interact on the same hardware bus and present their data in a common format.
In previous aircraft Ada was used which is a very secure but also a very terse and difficult language. Finding programmers for Ada is difficult, since you need very good ones to understand the high level of encapsulation in Ada programming. The sensor fusion on the F-22 is an achievment by any standards since they had to use Ada and write millions if not billions of lines of code and verify them. Considering Ada programmers are a relatively rare recource that is a feat.
With the JSF they learnt their lesson and its source code is in C++, this not only allowed for rapid development of flight control models and data fusion, it reduced the burden on software development since almost every idiot with a Computer related degree and some without it know C in some form or the other.
The Thunder is the second combat aircraft to use C++ for its software, and considering that we have no shortage of C++ programmers in this country software development for the aircraft will be rapid, and if the hardware guys don't slow them down sensor integration via software will be easy as pie.

 

[cw2005]

Sir,

It is a bad bad terminology---" you hate to bust the argument"----you need to learn not to bust the argument but put in your professional input and thoughts---

I am an AUTOMOTIVE ENGR MAJOR----you know how many schools are in this world offering BS engr in auto engr----4 in U S---1 in britain possibly---1 in japan---1 in germany---1 in france---possibly no more than 15 schools overall that offer a bachelors degree in my field----not and associate or mechanic course---a bachelor of engr degree. I am associated with retail sales for 20 plus years with many a major brands of automobiles.

So maybe just because of my background I may know a tad more than the average joe.

Even cars like the mercedes benz and BMW cannot compete with the quality that honda produces day in and day out----the only mid to low price automobile int he world that has tolerances as close to or are as good or better than those in mercedes and bmw line cars. All the engines in the indy car races are provided by honda----honda is the industry standard of quality. Thankyou.

Siemens is standard of the industry in the electrical side----there is no chinese product that can come close to it---unless that product is a licensed copy of the original product. Chinese don't have the industrial base, tecxhnology and research to beat siemens at their game.

Pakistan railways is a good example---the diesel engines they bought from china---at 1/4 th the cost---my pakistani colleagues were bragging about the ingenuity of the locomotves and chinese engineering----guess what----they have run out of their lives within ten years---within the warranty time period and are junked---and pakistan has not enopugh engines to put on express trains----there are times that one locomoive is used to pull two trains at one time frm karachi to 1/3 mark of its destination.

Chinese nuclear reactors---don't produce the same amount of energy as the american or the europeans---. It is not a beat down session on china---.

Looking back the 4 time more costly general electric diesel looks more attractive now----some of them are even running still after 40 years of service. Some of them had many a million miles----some older members can remember the yellow diesel locomotives---had a million miles stamp on the front in the early mid 70's and they still ran---the last I saw a GMU 30 running in 2007---this engine came into service in 1972.

Coming back to the discussion-----

You people need to understand the importance of time---ASIM AQUIL used to have the signature ''CARPE DIEM" which he changed----I didnot know what it was till my compnay had t-shirts printed---then I looked into it---it came out to be 'SIEZE THE MOMENT'.

For you people when you talk----seemingly time is of no importance----because you are young----for me it is a different story---I am past midway of my life---every minute of life is cherishable to me---I can't sleep early because I am losing one day of life when I wake up----but you won't understand this till you get to the bridge.

You see---it is the same issue----if the grippen was inducted in 2005---we would have been onto bigger and better things in life for now---our air defence needs would have been different than what they are now---our threshold level of taking on the enemy would have been at a different pleateau than it is now---the problem being in a catchup game is that you never catchup---there are always issues that creep up---there is always somebody there to pull our leg down. The balance of power may have changed---mumbai massacre took place---red mosque happened---there are things in life beyond our control that happen when we lose control of the time.

If the grippe would have been inducted by 2005---paf would have others things to worry about---it wouldhave been after bigger and better things---. So, now after 6 years in the year 2010---we still are behind where we were supposed to be in 2005---.

You people's example is just like---if your child was drowning in the running waters and every effort that you made took you away from that child---and by the time you got ready to rescue the child---the child had disappeared---so you started working on making a new child.

Bottomline---ghrippen a proven system ready uin 2005 at a 110 % ready---jf 17 2013---still unpredictable and in its growing status.

The jf 17 will bring something to the table in th enext 3---4 years time---but to date----there is nothing substantial.

Paf has just created a fake hysteria amongst the public----this plane needs to go through the cycle of complete integration---and then needs to be field tyested for years to stake its claim.

Israel was also in a similiar situation----they were intelligent to swallow their pride and dump the lavi and go back to the old reliable.

I know Sir MK would not be convinced, but I am still trying.

California consults with China about high-speed rail

California consults with China about high-speed rail | MNN - Mother Nature Network

 

[SQ8]

Sir,

It is a bad bad terminology---" you hate to bust the argument"----you need to learn not to bust the argument but put in your professional input and thoughts---

I am an AUTOMOTIVE ENGR MAJOR----you know how many schools are in this world offering BS engr in auto engr----4 in U S---1 in britain possibly---1 in japan---1 in germany---1 in france---possibly no more than 15 schools overall that offer a bachelors degree in my field----not and associate or mechanic course---a bachelor of engr degree. I am associated with retail sales for 20 plus years with many a major brands of automobiles.

So maybe just because of my background I may know a tad more than the average joe.

Even cars like the mercedes benz and BMW cannot compete with the quality that honda produces day in and day out----the only mid to low price automobile int he world that has tolerances as close to or are as good or better than those in mercedes and bmw line cars. All the engines in the indy car races are provided by honda----honda is the industry standard of quality. Thankyou.

Siemens is standard of the industry in the electrical side----there is no chinese product that can come close to it---unless that product is a licensed copy of the original product. Chinese don't have the industrial base, tecxhnology and research to beat siemens at their game.

Pakistan railways is a good example---the diesel engines they bought from china---at 1/4 th the cost---my pakistani colleagues were bragging about the ingenuity of the locomotves and chinese engineering----guess what----they have run out of their lives within ten years---within the warranty time period and are junked---and pakistan has not enopugh engines to put on express trains----there are times that one locomoive is used to pull two trains at one time frm karachi to 1/3 mark of its destination.

Chinese nuclear reactors---don't produce the same amount of energy as the american or the europeans---. It is not a beat down session on china---.

Looking back the 4 time more costly general electric diesel looks more attractive now----some of them are even running still after 40 years of service. Some of them had many a million miles----some older members can remember the yellow diesel locomotives---had a million miles stamp on the front in the early mid 70's and they still ran---the last I saw a GMU 30 running in 2007---this engine came into service in 1972.

Coming back to the discussion-----

You people need to understand the importance of time---ASIM AQUIL used to have the signature ''CARPE DIEM" which he changed----I didnot know what it was till my compnay had t-shirts printed---then I looked into it---it came out to be 'SIEZE THE MOMENT'.

For you people when you talk----seemingly time is of no importance----because you are young----for me it is a different story---I am past midway of my life---every minute of life is cherishable to me---I can't sleep early because I am losing one day of life when I wake up----but you won't understand this till you get to the bridge.

You see---it is the same issue----if the grippen was inducted in 2005---we would have been onto bigger and better things in life for now---our air defence needs would have been different than what they are now---our threshold level of taking on the enemy would have been at a different pleateau than it is now---the problem being in a catchup game is that you never catchup---there are always issues that creep up---there is always somebody there to pull our leg down. The balance of power may have changed---mumbai massacre took place---red mosque happened---there are things in life beyond our control that happen when we lose control of the time.

If the grippe would have been inducted by 2005---paf would have others things to worry about---it wouldhave been after bigger and better things---. So, now after 6 years in the year 2010---we still are behind where we were supposed to be in 2005---.

You people's example is just like---if your child was drowning in the running waters and every effort that you made took you away from that child---and by the time you got ready to rescue the child---the child had disappeared---so you started working on making a new child.

Bottomline---ghrippen a proven system ready uin 2005 at a 110 % ready---jf 17 2013---still unpredictable and in its growing status.

The jf 17 will bring something to the table in th enext 3---4 years time---but to date----there is nothing substantial.

Paf has just created a fake hysteria amongst the public----this plane needs to go through the cycle of complete integration---and then needs to be field tyested for years to stake its claim.

Israel was also in a similiar situation----they were intelligent to swallow their pride and dump the lavi and go back to the old reliable.

Monsieur,

You may be at the mid point of your life which is why by this time your opinions are so set it is near impossible for them to accept otherwise(Have had the same problem with my uncle who has been a structural engineer for 25 years and doesn't believe in the safety of anything that does not have right angles), Huawei has beaten siemens in multiple markets with products I have seen myself. Products that gain preference over siemens day by day as a better cost effective alternative.

Im not sure where are you going with the whole automotive engineering qualification thingie, but I'm impressed anyway.
I have been out of my university less than 6 months but have been working with a research company since my sophomore year. I am part of the design team for multiple defense projects including a next generation adaptable radio, a jammer and the guidance system for a missile. I also design monitoring systems for equipment that goes into the telecom sector.
I work with Power PC's, Microcontrollers, DSP's, Intel GPP's, and the OMAP systems.
And I know too well about time since I meet the deadlines set by the customer and usually with 15 days to spare. And unlike my fellow graduates I didn't apply for jobs, I got called for them. So I too get really peeved at being associated with an "average joe" .
So while I cant judge whether Honda or BMW have the better manufacturing process, I can judge electronics, avionics and sensors. So while its true that you might be studying your field at the same time my parents were manufacturing me ,it still is limited to automotive engineering and retail and not computer architecture,electronics, FBW control laws and signal processing.
R&D in those fields is my Kung fu and it is good. I know by looking at the specs you see & hear about and the ones you don't that what you have in the Thunder is sufficient. The problem was with the radar which as the recent article in AFM will support is about to be sorted out.
Also if the issue of field testing is to be taken as proof of greatness, then I suppose the P-51 Mustang is a poor example, It flew less than 200 days after the go ahead, and once its engine was changed in 1942 became the icon of WWII.
Lets take a more modern example, I just okayed a module which I solely worked on as my Final year project for the Software radio I mentioned earlier. I gave it every possible test by myself, under extreme noise, processor heatup and overload and the module still performed flawlessly even thought I used cheap off the shelf components and a relatively simple design. Me and my supporting team were given the deadline of december 2010. My part is finished.
My CEO worked in a previous company where they designed something similar a few years back on an ASIC( Applications specific computer). They had 40 guys for hardware and 40 for software..they spent near to a million dollars(financed off course..before sept 11) and had the fabrication of the chip done. Eventually they found a bug and spent another year fixing it through software patches since it would be prohibitively expensive to redo it. I compared my results on my $500 solution to theirs and my baby gives a much better result.
Today if an ASIC chip is made that way to the same job will give an even better result than my solution but it will cost a LOT more as well.
If the Thunder does even half of what the Gripen does(which is does).. at a lesser cost(which it has)..and with equal reliability(what you question and I dont), then I don't see the PAF losing too much with its choice.

I know you must have a knowledge of manufacturing processes and what metal is better where and what systems to put on an automobile. But unless you tell me that you have seen the thunder, touched it, seen the blue prints, amount of composites,alloys etc,know about the proposed assembly line and still feel its crap; I cant accept that every person in that white building in sector E-9 of Islamabad called AHQ is an idiot who due to his ignorance of all of the above including the electronics ,looked at the Gripen Brochure in all its glory and still decided to put hundreds of pilots at risk on a sub standard aircraft.
Till then your arguments on the Chinese equipment using singular examples is "ignotum per ignotius".


btw.
The railway engines too aren't just the fault of the Chinese I believe, Less than 10 months ago I visited the so called overhaul and carriage manufacture facility of PR to introduce a basic ATS my employer was making at the place. A roadside kitchen would look better organized and more professional. Rust ridden tools were the preferred option and everything seemed to be given to the welder using nothing more than a blowtorch to try and fix damaged parts.
A bad car is a bad car to begin with wholeheartedly agree but even a Honda in bad hands is going to be junked sooner than later.
And... the Lavi was dumped not because it wasn't good enough, but because the Israeli's were in a financial crunch with defense procurements and since they only planned to buy 150 of them it would cost more per unit than the American offer of the F-16 block 40. Had the Israeli's have enough money to buy 300 or so of the Lavi there might have been exports and a different inventory for many of the worlds air forces.

 

[Arsalan]

inst it more then enough that JF17 is our own plane. we can do whatever we want to do with it. no one stops or ban us if we wanna upgrade it.
look just understand this point, many here say that how will we upgradr JF to next level with such bad economic status of country, what we must realize that if we want to get a better plane from export market it will cost still much more then what it will take to upgrade the existing JF project. moreover no is there to stop and say that look you cannot put BVR or it, or Hey! dont use it against indians!
it is a PAF plane that they can use to will!!

i hope i have made my point.

regards!

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro,

That was a very well versed post---you put a lots of serious thoughts into it and I appreciate that very much.

But looking at your post---I get one thing out of it---you are young---you are smart---you are successful into your first gig----really really riding high at this moment---I believe that you are in pakistan right now.

Right now---you are at the stage where---

Aiy jazba a dil gar min chahon---har cheese muqabil aa jaiye---and that is fine

We all go through that growth cycle---I overhauled my dad's car engine and transmission when I was 19 without any help from a techniciqan---I had just looked at what the mechanics would do---is it good enough what I achieved---not neccessarily---I gor air in my head---and became arrogant---you are not anything different either---you are getting air into your head---these are similiar words I would say to the professionals.

Pakistan's railways workshops were no different now than what they were before---there are certain kinds of machines--whatever you do---you can't tear them up---if it doesnot break down then why do you need to repair it---the problem occurs when it breaks down and you have to take it apart and then put it back----that is what casues the problems---.

Secondly---due to your lack of experience---as you have not faced any job threatening and career hampering failures in your life yet---you cannot be a judge at this moment----to find your true worth---you will have to fail many a times ---pull your self up by your boot straps---then you will know your true worth---and the mettle that you are made up of.

My yuoung friend---the steel needs to be tempered.

As for your satisfaction of jf 17 at 50% with grippen---that is a slighted remark---don't set your standards low---.

P51 was a wartime neccessity---didnot make any difference if it had a less powerful engine----the american factories were turning them out faster than the enemy was shooting them down---if you can do the same with the jf 17----have 1000 of them----then it is no big deal.

Israeli were promised everything to forego the lavi----all the latest upgrades and never a mention of sanctions against any other purchase----there was never a shortage of funds for the lavi---think young man---jew control the wealth of the world---would they let their saviour down---never.

Over all a very good and satisfactory post from you---makes me feel proud of you---thankyou very much for taking the time and putting your heart out. It is all about the motherland---.

 

[SBD-3]

Santro,

That was a very well versed post---you put a lots of serious thoughts into it and I appreciate that very much.

But looking at your post---I get one thing out of it---you are young---you are smart---you are successful into your first gig----really really riding high at this moment---I believe that you are in pakistan right now.

Right now---you are at the stage where---

Aiy jazba a dil gar min chahon---har cheese muqabil aa jaiye---and that is fine

We all go through that growth cycle---I overhauled my dad's car engine and transmission when I was 19 without any help from a techniciqan---I had just looked at what the mechanics would do---is it good enough what I achieved---not neccessarily---I gor air in my head---and became arrogant---you are not anything different either---you are getting air into your head---these are similiar words I would say to the professionals.

Pakistan's railways workshops were no different now than what they were before---there are certain kinds of machines--whatever you do---you can't tear them up---if it doesnot break down then why do you need to repair it---the problem occurs when it breaks down and you have to take it apart and then put it back----that is what casues the problems---.

Secondly---due to your lack of experience---as you have not faced any job threatening and career hampering failures in your life yet---you cannot be a judge at this moment----to find your true worth---you will have to fail many a times ---pull your self up by your boot straps---then you will know your true worth---and the mettle that you are made up of.

As for your satisfaction of jf 17 at 50% with grippen---that is a slighted remark---don't set your standards low---.

P51 was a wartime neccessity---didnot make any difference if it had a less powerful engine----the american factories were turning them out faster than the enemy was shooting them down---if you can do the same with the jf 17----have 1000 of them----then it is no big deal.

Israeli were promised everything to forego the lavi----all the latest upgrades and never a mention of sanctions against any other purchase----there was never a shortage of funds for the lavi---think young man---jew control the wealth of the world---would they let their saviour down---never.

Over all a very good and satisfactory post from you---makes me feel proud of you---thankyou very much for taking the time and putting your heart out. It is all about the motherland---.

but sir (As now I know how old are you) what I know is that problem was more from US as they started taking Lavi as a threat to their Falcon program so they closed funding. Even though jews control the wealth of the world, Israel depends upon US aid rather than Jewish contributions. So as per my humble information Lavi fell to Falcon rather than Israeli commitment

 

[iPhone]

Monsieur,


Im not sure where are you going with the whole automotive engineering qualification thingie, but I'm impressed anyway.

he means buy a Honda lol

I love these discussions and am glad I joined a Pakistani community boards where there are smart, educated people posting and who know what they are saying and mean nothing but utmost best for their nation despite having different opinions. And it's about damn time we get sincerity of such caliber from our decision making governmental branches, too 'cuz god knows that nations needs it.

 

[SQ8]

Santro,

That was a very well versed post---you put a lots of serious thoughts into it and I appreciate that very much.

But looking at your post---I get one thing out of it---you are young---you are smart---you are successful into your first gig----really really riding high at this moment---I believe that you are in pakistan right now.

Right now---you are at the stage where---

Aiy jazba a dil gar min chahon---har cheese muqabil aa jaiye---and that is fine

We all go through that growth cycle---I overhauled my dad's car engine and transmission when I was 19 without any help from a techniciqan---I had just looked at what the mechanics would do---is it good enough what I achieved---not neccessarily---I gor air in my head---and became arrogant---you are not anything different either---you are getting air into your head---these are similiar words I would say to the professionals.

Pakistan's railways workshops were no different now than what they were before---there are certain kinds of machines--whatever you do---you can't tear them up---if it doesnot break down then why do you need to repair it---the problem occurs when it breaks down and you have to take it apart and then put it back----that is what casues the problems---.

Secondly---due to your lack of experience---as you have not faced any job threatening and career hampering failures in your life yet---you cannot be a judge at this moment----to find your true worth---you will have to fail many a times ---pull your self up by your boot straps---then you will know your true worth---and the mettle that you are made up of.

My yuoung friend---the steel needs to be tempered.

As for your satisfaction of jf 17 at 50% with grippen---that is a slighted remark---don't set your standards low---.

P51 was a wartime neccessity---didnot make any difference if it had a less powerful engine----the american factories were turning them out faster than the enemy was shooting them down---if you can do the same with the jf 17----have 1000 of them----then it is no big deal.

Israeli were promised everything to forego the lavi----all the latest upgrades and never a mention of sanctions against any other purchase----there was never a shortage of funds for the lavi---think young man---jew control the wealth of the world---would they let their saviour down---never.

Over all a very good and satisfactory post from you---makes me feel proud of you---thankyou very much for taking the time and putting your heart out. It is all about the motherland---.

Does flunking my A-levels, repeating it while spending a whole year running low level errands for an office count..or seeing my gorgeous B-2 model which I built using months of saved up cash fly into a power line count too(god I think I was more heartbroken that day than learning about my ex cheating...at least the aircraft was faithful while it flew )?
Yup.. god wills it I have a whole lotta life to go, ive only just begun the real deal.. and if you take the word of god then the 40's are the actual "jawani" of a man and only then is he considered a man.

Well the Lavi was still a good plane..I liked it anyway..loved flying it in Jane's IAF.
My opinions on the Thunder are built on seeing is believing, and the little ive seen and heard from generally level headed officers had kept my view of it as positive.

The Gripen purchase I am well aware of due to the fact that one of my paternal uncles is the head of Pegasus consultancy which as you know organizes IDEAS. And he along with many officers(He is civilian..silver spooned son of a shipping magnate turned politician..Ill be impressed if somebody can guess) maintain the choice the PAF had. Get a multirole which is a good bomb truck..we could not buy a M2K so we decided to go for the F-16 B52 since we already operate and are familiar with the maintenance. The Gripen offered to us was the C/D variety and not the NG. So it was still primarily an air defense fighter and the PAF is satisfied with its air defense requirements based on the Thunder. So consequently the Gripen was never going against the Thunder rather it was competing with the Falcon for a strike orientated purchase.

An interesting convo with you always MK.

 

[SBD-3]

Does flunking my A-levels, repeating it while spending a whole year running low level errands for an office count..or seeing my gorgeous B-2 model which I built using months of saved up cash fly into a power line count too(god I think I was more heartbroken that day than learning about my ex cheating...at least the aircraft was faithful while it flew )?
Yup.. god wills it I have a whole lotta life to go, ive only just begun the real deal.. and if you take the word of god then the 40's are the actual "jawani" of a man and only then is he considered a man.

Well the Lavi was still a good plane..I liked it anyway..loved flying it in Jane's IAF.
My opinions on the Thunder are built on seeing is believing, and the little ive seen and heard from generally level headed officers had kept my view of it as positive.

The Gripen purchase I am well aware of due to the fact that one of my paternal uncles is the head of Pegasus consultancy which as you know organizes IDEAS. And he along with many officers(He is civilian..silver spooned son of a shipping magnate turned politician..Ill be impressed if somebody can guess) maintain the choice the PAF had. Get a multirole which is a good bomb truck..we could not buy a M2K so we decided to go for the F-16 B52 since we already operate and are familiar with the maintenance. The Gripen offered to us was the C/D variety and not the NG. So it was still primarily an air defense fighter and the PAF is satisfied with its air defense requirements based on the Thunder. So consequently the Gripen was never going against the Thunder rather it was competing with the Falcon for a strike orientated purchase.

An interesting convo with you always MK.

Well I have few things in mind
1- When Pakistan requested for Grippen (Griffon), It prompted a protest out of Israel as Griffon even in C/D form has a pretty good range and Pakistani Griffons when taking off from Peshawar could do the job til tel aviv ( Thats what I read in an analysis published in news paper).Griffon is designed to be a multirole, Even though the F-16 was trend setter Griffon has emerged to become the ultimate choice in light multirole class....
2-Obviously PAF was offered C/D as NG would be at most on drawing board at that time (still under development till date I think) yet C/D was a more than respectible match for F-16.But I think it would be, though painful and a bit costly, yet an enriching experience for PAF as when compared to F-16s (100% US) Griffon had lesser degree of US components (certainly far less as compared to Falcon). Even though we could not bear ToT, as indicated by them CM, we could certainly get local maintainence and overall facilities (like mirage) which could be a much better thing....obviously we could gradually move to component manufacturing etc. In recent Swedes have made pretty generous offers to different countries (e.g. Brazil complete ToT for an order of 36 and MRCA as well) so we stood a pretty good chance of a generous offer like this. Anyways, having shared my thoughts, I do like to acknowledge that PAF is in a better position to make decesion than me.
I still think that if not selected in MRCA, NG is a good choice for PAF to induct in small batch (30-40) as if comes with ToT and PAF already having adequate exprience in AC and system manufacturing (thanks to thunder) Technology brought by Griffon will be a definite plus for Pakistani aviation industry

 

[SQ8]

Well I have few things in mind
1- When Pakistan requested for Grippen (Griffon), It prompted a protest out of Israel as Griffon even in C/D form has a pretty good range and Pakistani Griffons when taking off from Peshawar could do the job til tel aviv ( Thats what I read in an analysis published in news paper).Griffon is designed to be a multirole, Even though the F-16 was trend setter Griffon has emerged to become the ultimate choice in light multirole class....
2-Obviously PAF was offered C/D as NG would be at most on drawing board at that time (still under development till date I think) yet C/D was a more than respectible match for F-16.But I think it would be, though painful and a bit costly, yet an enriching experience for PAF as when compared to F-16s (100% US) Griffon had lesser degree of US components (certainly far less as compared to Falcon). Even though we could not bear ToT, as indicated by them CM, we could certainly get local maintainence and overall facilities (like mirage) which could be a much better thing....obviously we could gradually move to component manufacturing etc. In recent Swedes have made pretty generous offers to different countries (e.g. Brazil complete ToT for an order of 36 and MRCA as well) so we stood a pretty good chance of a generous offer like this. Anyways, having shared my thoughts, I do like to acknowledge that PAF is in a better position to make decesion than me.
I still think that if not selected in MRCA, NG is a good choice for PAF to induct in small batch (30-40) as if comes with ToT and PAF already having adequate exprience in AC and system manufacturing (thanks to thunder) Technology brought by Griffon will be a definite plus for Pakistani aviation industry

Umm.. So can the Block 52's if flown out of peshawar..I assure you and they will need a lot less effort in integration,logistics and training.2ndly..why o why would the PAF whose publicly declared goal is to reduce the number of types it operates introduce another type, the gripen would have made sense if the PAF decided to phase out its falcons and replace them with the Gripen...which has a licensed US engine and a plethora of other components which come with the same EUA the falcon does. So no advantage there after spending more money for newer infrastructure, training, logistics if you get the same shackles as the falcon..at least we have a few workarounds for the falcons..it will take years to workaround the gripen.

We trained to hit Dimona as well using proxy bases in........ using a combination of Mirages and F-16's...back then the air defenses of Israel weren't as spectacular as they are now, back in the 80's you could hope to breach the defenses with one or two aircraft on a confirmed suicidal mission...now its next to impossible.

Generous offers come to countries that don't have a history of blood thirsty murderers roaming shopping malls in the day and kidnapping people for ransom by night. Brazil doesn't have people being blown up by suicide bombers, Brazil doesn't have a rogue proxy army of Lashkar e Taiba,Jhangvi and the Taliban to deal with, who publicly want everyone in the west including Sweden dead. Brazil did not produce a scientist willing to sell nuclear secrets without authorization to anyone willing to pay him enough. And worst of all..Brazil has cash..we don't. The last 10 loan pay backs we had to beg to be rescheduled or we had to borrow from somewhere else. Brazil doesn't have credit rating that is comparable to Angola.
And oh yeah...did I forget to mention that Brazil doesn't have a consistently progressing neighbor who is the darling of the world community and has its pockets full and who just so happens to hate our guts and is willing to cut us down in every possible field using every means necessary...Accept the reality that only in rare cases and only with technology that doesn't change the game even a teency bit does Pakistan Ever get a TOT( or massive kickbacks if you deal with the french..which means you will be paying $100 for a $1 screw).

Change all of that, and Yeah.. I suppose, we could get the Gripen or the eurofighter or even the JSF with Tot.

There is a quicker fix, if you really are in soo bad for these fighters. Get the government to go out and hold a press conference that you are willing to give up your nukes for a gajjillion dollars in return for complete support, it will be a short beautiful few years..Gripens, Typhoons..the JSF..MRTT's. AESA..Aegis..U-214..possibly even the Barracuda SSN..All the tanks you want, all the guns you need.. even the TAvor..
Then a few years down the line after the euphoria has ended and the wolves have had their play with leadership that was more influenced and corrupt than ever before, a complacent military and a paper economy..you will realize you are worse than ever before. You will be dealing with 25 insurgencies, The Baloch will have a separate nation, the Indians will be sitting in Kashmir and you will sitting will all your hardware(or divided up like the Yugoslavs) and will feel really really stupid that why o why did I not learn to stand on my own feet, learn to make my own swords..instead of being awed by what looked superior at that time..and chose the shiny easy way out.

 

[Aslan]

Umm.. So can the Block 52's if flown out of peshawar..I assure you and they will need a lot less effort in integration,logistics and training.2ndly..why o why would the PAF whose publicly declared goal is to reduce the number of types it operates introduce another type, the gripen would have made sense if the PAF decided to phase out its falcons and replace them with the Gripen...which has a licensed US engine and a plethora of other components which come with the same EUA the falcon does. So no advantage there after spending more money for newer infrastructure, training, logistics if you get the same shackles as the falcon..at least we have a few workarounds for the falcons..it will take years to workaround the gripen.

We trained to hit Dimona as well using proxy bases in........ using a combination of Mirages and F-16's...back then the air defenses of Israel weren't as spectacular as they are now, back in the 80's you could hope to breach the defenses with one or two aircraft on a confirmed suicidal mission...now its next to impossible.

Generous offers come to countries that don't have a history of blood thirsty murderers roaming shopping malls in the day and kidnapping people for ransom by night. Brazil doesn't have people being blown up by suicide bombers, Brazil doesn't have a rogue proxy army of Lashkar e Taiba,Jhangvi and the Taliban to deal with, who publicly want everyone in the west including Sweden dead. Brazil did not produce a scientist willing to sell nuclear secrets without authorization to anyone willing to pay him enough. And worst of all..Brazil has cash..we don't. The last 10 loan pay backs we had to beg to be rescheduled or we had to borrow from somewhere else. Brazil doesn't have credit rating that is comparable to Angola.
And oh yeah...did I forget to mention that Brazil doesn't have a consistently progressing neighbor who is the darling of the world community and has its pockets full and who just so happens to hate our guts and is willing to cut us down in every possible field using every means necessary...Accept the reality that only in rare cases and only with technology that doesn't change the game even a teency bit does Pakistan Ever get a TOT( or massive kickbacks if you deal with the french..which means you will be paying $100 for a $1 screw).

Change all of that, and Yeah.. I suppose, we could get the Gripen or the eurofighter or even the JSF with Tot.

There is a quicker fix, if you really are in soo bad for these fighters. Get the government to go out and hold a press conference that you are willing to give up your nukes for a gajjillion dollars in return for complete support, it will be a short beautiful few years..Gripens, Typhoons..the JSF..MRTT's. AESA..Aegis..U-214..possibly even the Barracuda SSN..All the tanks you want, all the guns you need.. even the TAvor..
Then a few years down the line after the euphoria has ended and the wolves have had their play with leadership that was more influenced and corrupt than ever before, a complacent military and a paper economy..you will realize you are worse than ever before. You will be dealing with 25 insurgencies, The Baloch will have a separate nation, the Indians will be sitting in Kashmir and you will sitting will all your hardware(or divided up like the Yugoslavs) and will feel really really stupid that why o why did I not learn to stand on my own feet, learn to make my own swords..instead of being awed by what looked superior at that time..and chose the shiny easy way out.

A bitter reality but nicely put.

 

[hataf]

Umm.. So can the Block 52's if flown out of peshawar..I assure you and they will need a lot less effort in integration,logistics and training.2ndly..why o why would the PAF whose publicly declared goal is to reduce the number of types it operates introduce another type, the gripen would have made sense if the PAF decided to phase out its falcons and replace them with the Gripen...which has a licensed US engine and a plethora of other components which come with the same EUA the falcon does. So no advantage there after spending more money for newer infrastructure, training, logistics if you get the same shackles as the falcon..at least we have a few workarounds for the falcons..it will take years to workaround the gripen.

We trained to hit Dimona as well using proxy bases in........ using a combination of Mirages and F-16's...back then the air defenses of Israel weren't as spectacular as they are now, back in the 80's you could hope to breach the defenses with one or two aircraft on a confirmed suicidal mission...now its next to impossible.

Generous offers come to countries that don't have a history of blood thirsty murderers roaming shopping malls in the day and kidnapping people for ransom by night. Brazil doesn't have people being blown up by suicide bombers, Brazil doesn't have a rogue proxy army of Lashkar e Taiba,Jhangvi and the Taliban to deal with, who publicly want everyone in the west including Sweden dead. Brazil did not produce a scientist willing to sell nuclear secrets without authorization to anyone willing to pay him enough. And worst of all..Brazil has cash..we don't. The last 10 loan pay backs we had to beg to be rescheduled or we had to borrow from somewhere else. Brazil doesn't have credit rating that is comparable to Angola.
And oh yeah...did I forget to mention that Brazil doesn't have a consistently progressing neighbor who is the darling of the world community and has its pockets full and who just so happens to hate our guts and is willing to cut us down in every possible field using every means necessary...Accept the reality that only in rare cases and only with technology that doesn't change the game even a teency bit does Pakistan Ever get a TOT( or massive kickbacks if you deal with the french..which means you will be paying $100 for a $1 screw).

Change all of that, and Yeah.. I suppose, we could get the Gripen or the eurofighter or even the JSF with Tot.

There is a quicker fix, if you really are in soo bad for these fighters. Get the government to go out and hold a press conference that you are willing to give up your nukes for a gajjillion dollars in return for complete support, it will be a short beautiful few years..Gripens, Typhoons..the JSF..MRTT's. AESA..Aegis..U-214..possibly even the Barracuda SSN..All the tanks you want, all the guns you need.. even the TAvor..
Then a few years down the line after the euphoria has ended and the wolves have had their play with leadership that was more influenced and corrupt than ever before, a complacent military and a paper economy..you will realize you are worse than ever before. You will be dealing with 25 insurgencies, The Baloch will have a separate nation, the Indians will be sitting in Kashmir and you will sitting will all your hardware(or divided up like the Yugoslavs) and will feel really really stupid that why o why did I not learn to stand on my own feet, learn to make my own swords..instead of being awed by what looked superior at that time..and chose the shiny easy way out.

thats pin point accuracy

 

[Storm Force]

With regards JF17 being free from embargos Just one point.

The Engine is Russian.

The Avionics /radar & weapons 100% chinease.

The Airframe is being assembled in Pakistan from parts supplied by China.

In theory China could completely HALT thunder (but i realise it won,t happen)
they6 are your allys