Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[salarsikander]

RM12 designed and built by Volvo Aerospace was based on the F404. Used in Gripen A-D.
U.S. made F414 in Gripen E, but GKN Aerospace (formerly Volvo Aerospace) is an important subcontractor for the F414.

Designed and built based on existing engine ???

 

[The SC]

Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some gripen hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour gripen.

The Gripen had a big chunk of cheese in his mouth and then when he talked to the fox he droped it, And the fox took it and run away with it... Ha!Ha!Ha!

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Designed and built based on existing engine ???

Produced by Volvo Aero (now GKN Aerospace Engine Systems), the RM12 is a derivative of the General Electric F404-400. Changes from the standard F404 includes greater reliability for single-engine operations (including more stringent birdstrike protection), increased thrust, and the adoption of a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system.[1][2] Several subsystems and components were also redesigned to reduce maintenance demands.[3] The air intakes of the engine were designed to minimize radar reflection from the compression fan, reducing the radar cross section of the aircraft overall.[2] The F404's analogue Engine Control Unit was replaced with the Digital Engine Control – jointly developed by Volvo and GE – which communicates with the cockpit through the digital data buses and, as redundancy, mechanical calculators controlled by a single wire will regulate the fuel-flow into the engine. These mechanical backup systems remain in the new Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) which Volvo began developing in 1996.[2] General Electric produces 50% of the engine. Elements such as the fan/compressor discs and case, compressor spool, hubs, seals, and afterburner are manufactured in Sweden, final assembly also taking place there.[2]

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I would like to remind the pakistani posters that the Gripen has an almost 10 years of head start over the JF17 and all the western tech available to them laid down at their door steps---.

Just accept it that the Gripen E is a superior aircraft---because that is the truth---.

Now when the JF17 comes out with the BLk 3 with aesa and other goodies---then you can do a justifiable comparison between the two---.

Till then the Cardinal's aircraft is the winner.

 

[Tipu7]

how people were comparing the ada class lcs and the f22p. just because they are the same size does not mean they should be compared. as they its like comparing apples to oranges

Lol

That topic was meant to give comparison of capabilities of both vessels in order to point out merits & DeMerits of each option.....

It was not vis on vis comparison.

On topic :

And as far as Gripen vs Jf17 goes, one must remember that Gripen is benchmark for Jf17 to be compared .........
Rest both aircraft house exact opposite tech origin.
One aircraft is product of American, Swedish, English & German tech
Other is product of Chinese, Russia, Pakistani tech. (ECM as exception)

Swedish have access to advance sub systems and a strong eco to afford such purchases, Jf17 case is exact opposite as we want to keep it capable but still cheaper, advance but still sanction proof hence compromising availability of market of sub systems and of course there is crippled eco to back this project.

Untill now, Gripen is superior, on paper Jf17 might beat Gripen in some parameters but in terms of quality of combat equipment it's far ahead. One must realise that Gripen air frame has low metallic and alloy components compared to Thunder, and in flight control systems Jf17 lags behind Gripen for having Limited Fly by wire system and if Hybrid origin.

Block 3 might match the ability gap as Pakistan is looking for Selex products like Raven series AESA radar, sky guard IRST, dedicated ECM from Spain/Italy , Better engine with more thrust & fuel efficiency (Rd33MJ) , South African missiles (A darter), Turkish sub systems ( Asalpod) etc etc

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Lol

That topic was meant to give comparison of capabilities of both vessels in order to point out merits & DeMerits of each option.....

It was not vis on vis comparison.

On topic :

And as far as Gripen vs Jf17 goes, one must remember that Gripen is benchmark for Jf17 to be compared .........
Rest both aircraft house exact opposite tech origin.
One aircraft is product of American, Swedish, English & German tech
Other is product of Chinese, Russia, Pakistani tech. (ECM as exception)

View attachment 311056

Swedish have access to advance sub systems and a strong eco to afford such purchases, Jf17 case is exact opposite as we want to keep it capable but still cheaper, advance but still sanction proof hence compromising availability of market of sub systems and of course there is crippled eco to back this project.

Untill now, Gripen is superior, on paper Jf17 might beat Gripen in some parameters but in terms of quality of combat equipment it's far ahead. One must realise that Gripen air frame has low metallic and alloy components compared to Thunder, and in flight control systems Jf17 lags behind Gripen for having Limited Fly by wire system and if Hybrid origin.

Block 3 might match the ability gap as Pakistan is looking for Selex products like Raven series AESA radar, sky guard IRST, dedicated ECM from Spain/Italy , Better engine with more thrust & fuel efficiency (Rd33MJ) , South African missiles (A darter), Turkish sub systems ( Asalpod) etc etc

Adding expensive equipment to the Block III, will of course increase the price.

http://www.berattarverkstan.se/net/soup.htm

Nail Soup

A traditional swedish folk-tale

This story will be used in connection with a nordic storytelling day on spring equinox (march 20, 2002). It can be distributed freely with this copyright notice intact.

Once upon a time there was a tramp walking through a deep forest. He made his living selling a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Now he was cold and tired and hungry and what was even worse, he had nothing left to sell. All he owned were the ragged clothes he wore and an old, bent nail.

When he came out of the forest he saw a little cottage, with smoke rising from the chimney. He knocked on the door, the door opened and a woman looked at him suspiciously.
- Please, could you be as good as to give a poor man shelter for the night, he asked.
- I know your kind, she said, if I let you in you won´t leave before you have eaten everything I have. And I tell you, I´m so poor I haven´t had a bite for three days. So you just go away!
But the tramp was a clever fellow, and the woman was so greedy that she immediately invited him when he said that of course he didn´t want to eat the little she had. On the contrary, he wanted her to share his evening meal.
- But first I want to see the food you say you want to share, she said.
- This is all I need, he said, and took an old, bent nail out of his pocket. Just bring me a pot and some water, and I´ll cook the best soup you ever tasted with this nail.
The woman brought a pot and looked with amazement as the tramp made a fire, cooked some water and dropped the nail in it.
- The soup might be a little thin, he said, you see I have been using the nail for seven days now. It is a pity you don´t have a little salt, that would surely make the soup taste like a soup fit for any gentleman´s house. But what we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. I might have a little salt left since Christmas.
- How lucky, said the tramp and put the salt in the pot. Well I was thinking that perhaps you could even serve this soup to the priest, if we only had some vegetables also. But what we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. I might have some vegetables in the cellar.
The tramp praised the wisdom of the woman and the excellent taste of the soup.
- I think it would even be fit to serve the king, if we only had a little meat to add, said the tramp. But there is no use longing for the impossible. What we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. There might be some dried meat left somewhere.
The tramp happily added the meat to the by now sweet-smelling soup, the woman made the table with her finest silver spoons and her best plates. When she came to think of it, there was actually some wine left since her husband´s funeral.

So she felt almost like a queen when they shared the soup the tramp had cooked with his nail. The next morning the tramp left without his nail, because the woman wouldn´t let him go before he agreed to sell it. And still to this day, the nail has been very useful. Not only can you make a wonderful soup, but you can also use it for cooking tales with. True, what we lack we don't have, but if you add a little of this and a little of that it will certainly be a story fit for telling to a king!

Ulf Ärnström 2002

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Griphen is way better than JF-17

 

[MastanKhan]

Adding expensive equipment to the Block III, will of course increase the price.

Hi,

But that is basic math---.

You keep removing the expensive equipment from the Gripen E---and it will become and inexpensive aircraft.

Being expensive is a relative term---. You keep adding expensive equipment on the JF17---and it will become as deadly and potent as the Gripen E---now this is simple science.

Many a buyers of JF17 and its weapons package would not qualify to buy a Gripen and its weapons package regardless of the price due to their political affiliation or fear of sanctions---.

So---price is not the ' quantifying ' factor over here.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

But that is basic math---.

You keep removing the expensive equipment from the Gripen E---and it will become and inexpensive aircraft.

Being expensive is a relative term---. You keep adding expensive equipment on the JF17---and it will become as deadly and potent as the Gripen E---now this is simple science.

Many a buyers of JF17 and its weapons package would not qualify to buy a Gripen and its weapons package regardless of the price due to their political affiliation or fear of sanctions---.

So---price is not the ' quantifying ' factor over here.

If you compare it to a JF-17 B2, the Gripen-E is significantly more maneuverable, apart from more range and possibly more payload.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you compare it to a JF-17 B2, the Gripen-E is significantly more maneuverable, apart from more range and possibly more payload.

Hi,

We will only compare the BLK 2 to Gripen C/D---. The Gripen E is on a different scale.

 

[thrilainmanila]

on paper the blk3 is better then grippen a/b but in actual practice grippen is in a league of its own

 

[MastanKhan]

If you compare it to a JF-17 B2, the Gripen-E is significantly more maneuverable, apart from more range and possibly more payload.

Blk2 is being compared to the Gripen C/D and not the E version.

on paper the blk3 is better then grippen a/b but in actual practice grippen is in a league of its own

Hi,

And the reason being that the BLK 3 is about 2 years away---so what is on paper is misleading.

 

[Super Falcon]

Well gripe may be superior but we need a fighter jet which we can build on will and with it in future experience we might be build better fighter jet than gripe or its successor

Remember how speeds reach here

JAS DRAKEN
JAS VIGGEN

if you compare JF 17 as starter we are ahead of them our engineered and scientists need to have little experience and we are putting foots on self reliance

future will be better.

Gripe is been made by Israeli radars and US engines so it is not 10 out of 10 speeds marvel

 

[Manticore]

Gripen E Prototype rolled out in May this year will see its first flight only by the end of this year. while Swedish government has agreed to finance development of 3 Gripen E Prototypes, Second Prototype will be rolled out by next year with many key system pieces of equipment and third and final Prototype with all planned bells and whistles will take to air only in 2019 .

According to SAAB’s own assessment, Gripen E will require nearly 1200 sorties to conclude its development and Initial operational clearance (IOC) for Gripen E will come only in 2021 that’s when program will actually gain speed when the final and third Prototype Gripen E takes to air in 2019 with all planned upgraded equipment and Final operational clearance will be achieved only in 2023 which is nearly 7 years after its first rollout of Gripen E Prototype.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/gripen-e...h-murkier-much-scarier”.439492/#ixzz4ETKF7pPa

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Gripen E Prototype rolled out in May this year will see its first flight only by the end of this year. while Swedish government has agreed to finance development of 3 Gripen E Prototypes, Second Prototype will be rolled out by next year with many key system pieces of equipment and third and final Prototype with all planned bells and whistles will take to air only in 2019 .

According to SAAB’s own assessment, Gripen E will require nearly 1200 sorties to conclude its development and Initial operational clearance (IOC) for Gripen E will come only in 2021 that’s when program will actually gain speed when the final and third Prototype Gripen E takes to air in 2019 with all planned upgraded equipment and Final operational clearance will be achieved only in 2023 which is nearly 7 years after its first rollout of Gripen E Prototype.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/gripen-e-beyond-hype-“reality-is-much-stormier-much-murkier-much-scarier”.439492/#ixzz4ETKF7pPa

Deliveries to the Swedish Air Force will start in 2018, according to the announcement at the May 2016 rollout.
I don't think SAAB uses IOC/FOC terminology.
It is more a "Continuous Integration" concept where you deliver complete systems all the time,
but new versions with increased functionality become available at regular intervals.