Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Deliveries to the Swedish Air Force will start in 2018, according to the announcement at the May 2016 rollout.
I don't think SAAB uses IOC/FOC terminology.
It is more a "Continuous Integration" concept where you deliver complete systems all the time,
but new versions with increased functionality become available at regular intervals.

Kind sir, if you invest a bit more time to elaborate Swedish industrial philosophy to good people here, your engagement with the audience might lead to somthing creative....

Isn't it a more intellectual discussion here?

Industrial base behind Grippen is world class. It is industrial base on which the rest of the world bench marks.

So comparison needs a broader context for fair assesment than plane vs. plane.

Sensor fusion in Grippen is quite an achievement. And all the other goodies and packages that will come with E will make it something wonderful.

PAC had no real industrial base... even CAC for that matter. So, if they make this JF even 70% of Grippen or F16 would they not earn our esteem then.

For goodwill---there are swedish machines helping PAC build JFs!

Do forgive my calvanistic sense of fair play.

It is extremely amusing to read the indians hurbis and their utter dismissive attitude towards Grippen and SAAB. Have you visited their town here at PDF?

Was in Umea once...Volvo business. What makes swedish quality is not the machines or factories... It is swedish cutlure and calvanistic ethics that make Volvos or Grippens or submarines.

What can PAC learn from that culture and work ethics?

JF is in class of its own. Will only get better. It will also capture a market share that will amaze many people.

Thank you.

 

[PakEye]

SAAB offering India for production of gripen and transfer of technology under make in india programne than indian selected the rafale instead of gripen it can be possibility that PAC and SAAB produce some thing in partnership.

 

[Signalian]

SAAB offering India for production of gripen and transfer of technology under make in india programne than indian selected the rafale instead of gripen it can be possibility that PAC and SAAB produce some thing in partnership.

Sweden will not collaborate in weapon related products or technology with Pakistan. AWACs is not an offensive weapon platform.

 

[kaykay]

SAAB offering India for production of gripen and transfer of technology under make in india programne than indian selected the rafale instead of gripen it can be possibility that PAC and SAAB produce some thing in partnership.

Rafale has nothing to do with Make in India deal for which Saab is pitching. 36 off the shelf Rafales are different while Saab, LM and Boeing are pitching for another deal under make in India.

 

[PakEye]

Sweden will not collaborate in weapon related products or technology with Pakistan. AWACs is not an offensive weapon platform.

PAC already producing the Mushahak Aircraft in pakistan under SAAB collaboration and
During President Musharraf era the Gripen was the possible choice of PAF. I suggest the partnership instead of TOT,

 

[Signalian]

PAC already producing the Mushahak Aircraft in pakistan under SAAB collaboration and
During President Musharraf era the Gripen was the possible choice of PAF. I suggest the partnership instead of TOT,

and mushak is an offensive weapon platform, lol ?
Gripen was never a reality for PAF and its just another story mate..

 

[MastanKhan]

and mushak is an offensive weapon platform, lol ?
Gripen was never a reality for PAF and its just another story mate..

Hi,

Gripen was never the target for a buy---it was the foundations that the JF17 was to be based upon---. That was already decided when paf started checking out this aircraft.

Paf paid the price by procuring the swedish awacs---.

 

[Signalian]

Hi,

Gripen was never the target for a buy---it was the foundations that the JF17 was to be based upon---. That was already decided when paf started checking out this aircraft.

Paf paid the price by procuring the swedish awacs---.

and 10 years later , its being incorporated with Chinese avionics and weaponry. Lets see if Block III brings something European but i doubt that would be Swedish.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Initially, I bought the idea that JF-17 is the Gripen of the east. But, the way JF-17 Blk1 and Blk2 came out to be more talk than walk, I came to this conclusion.

-Gripen is like porsche. Well funded, Well equipped. Will look good, will perform good.
-Jf-17 is like Suzuki Alto. Will do the job for the budget but you know that, taking it to margalla hills for a dinner would be pushing it too far.

 

[MastanKhan]

Kind sir, if you invest a bit more time to elaborate Swedish industrial philosophy to good people here, your engagement with the audience might lead to somthing creative....

Isn't it a more intellectual discussion here?

Industrial base behind Grippen is world class. It is industrial base on which the rest of the world bench marks.

So comparison needs a broader context for fair assesment than plane vs. plane.

Sensor fusion in Grippen is quite an achievement. And all the other goodies and packages that will come with E will make it something wonderful.

PAC had no real industrial base... even CAC for that matter. So, if they make this JF even 70% of Grippen or F16 would they not earn our esteem then.

For goodwill---there are swedish machines helping PAC build JFs!

Do forgive my calvanistic sense of fair play.

It is extremely amusing to read the indians hurbis and their utter dismissive attitude towards Grippen and SAAB. Have you visited their town here at PDF?

Was in Umea once...Volvo business. What makes swedish quality is not the machines or factories... It is swedish cutlure and calvanistic ethics that make Volvos or Grippens or submarines.

What can PAC learn from that culture and work ethics?

JF is in class of its own. Will only get better. It will also capture a market share that will amaze many people.

Thank you.

Hi,

It is all in the books---you have to pick up and read them---. When you talk to someone and cannot get your point across---it is not you who has the problem---it is the other person.

30 + years ago---when I was going to automotive engr school here in the U S---I learnt that engineering is a frame of mind---. Actually I knew it long before that---but my conviction came when going to school here in the U S.

So---it was the 80's and I was saying why can't the americans make cars like the japanese---. What I learnt later was that a machine represents a person a nation, character and an ideology---what the germans designed---the americans won't and what the japanese designed---the world won't and same thing for the swedes---.

None can make weapons of war like the americans---. But then when you look at the French---their design has its own utility that many cannot understand---and the same can be said for the swedes and the germans.

You post did take me aback a little bit for a moment----because I saw myself reading something that I have stated many a times but in different words.

and 10 years later , its being incorporated with Chinese avionics and weaponry. Lets see if Block III brings something European but i doubt that would be Swedish.

Hi,

No---it was supposed to be incorporated with french EW suite and weapons---remember---. Would have been running circles around the Gripen by now---.

Initially, I bought the idea that JF-17 is the Gripen of the east. But, the way JF-17 Blk1 and Blk2 came out to be more talk than walk, I came to this conclusion.

-Gripen is like porsche. Well funded, Well equipped. Will look good, will perform good.
-Jf-17 is like Suzuki Alto. Will do the job for the budget but you know that, taking it to margalla hills for a dinner would be pushing it too far.

Hi,

The JF17 is more like a Honda Civic SI---and this aircraft on its own merit is not all talk---there is a lot more to it that what meets the eye.

 

[Arsalan]

Initially, I bought the idea that JF-17 is the Gripen of the east. But, the way JF-17 Blk1 and Blk2 came out to be more talk than walk, I came to this conclusion.

-Gripen is like porsche. Well funded, Well equipped. Will look good, will perform good.
-Jf-17 is like Suzuki Alto. Will do the job for the budget but you know that, taking it to margalla hills for a dinner would be pushing it too far.

There are SO many thing that people overlook while making such suggestions and no it is not just money!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Kind sir, if you invest a bit more time to elaborate Swedish industrial philosophy to good people here, your engagement with the audience might lead to somthing creative....

Isn't it a more intellectual discussion here?

Industrial base behind Grippen is world class. It is industrial base on which the rest of the world bench marks.

So comparison needs a broader context for fair assesment than plane vs. plane.

Sensor fusion in Grippen is quite an achievement. And all the other goodies and packages that will come with E will make it something wonderful.

PAC had no real industrial base... even CAC for that matter. So, if they make this JF even 70% of Grippen or F16 would they not earn our esteem then.

For goodwill---there are swedish machines helping PAC build JFs!

Do forgive my calvanistic sense of fair play.

It is extremely amusing to read the indians hurbis and their utter dismissive attitude towards Grippen and SAAB. Have you visited their town here at PDF?

Was in Umea once...Volvo business. What makes swedish quality is not the machines or factories... It is swedish cutlure and calvanistic ethics that make Volvos or Grippens or submarines.

What can PAC learn from that culture and work ethics?

JF is in class of its own. Will only get better. It will also capture a market share that will amaze many people.

Thank you.

What IS a calvanistic ethic?

 

[laphroaig]

Hi,

It is all in the books---you have to pick up and read them---. When you talk to someone and cannot get your point across---it is not you who has the problem---it is the other person.

30 + years ago---when I was going to automotive engr school here in the U S---I learnt that engineering is a frame of mind---. Actually I knew it long before that---but my conviction came when going to school here in the U S.

So---it was the 80's and I was saying why can't the americans make cars like the japanese---. What I learnt later was that a machine represents a person a nation, character and an ideology---what the germans designed---the americans won't and what the japanese designed---the world won't and same thing for the swedes---.

None can make weapons of war like the americans---. But then when you look at the French---their design has its own utility that many cannot understand---and the same can be said for the swedes and the germans.

You post did take me aback a little bit for a moment----because I saw myself reading something that I have stated many a times but in different words.

This post took me back too Mastan.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

It is all in the books---you have to pick up and read them---. When you talk to someone and cannot get your point across---it is not you who has the problem---it is the other person.

30 + years ago---when I was going to automotive engr school here in the U S---I learnt that engineering is a frame of mind---. Actually I knew it long before that---but my conviction came when going to school here in the U S.

So---it was the 80's and I was saying why can't the americans make cars like the japanese---. What I learnt later was that a machine represents a person a nation, character and an ideology---what the germans designed---the americans won't and what the japanese designed---the world won't and same thing for the swedes---.

None can make weapons of war like the americans---. But then when you look at the French---their design has its own utility that many cannot understand---and the same can be said for the swedes and the germans.

You post did take me aback a little bit for a moment----because I saw myself reading something that I have stated many a times but in different words.



Hi,

No---it was supposed to be incorporated with french EW suite and weapons---remember---. Would have been running circles around the Gripen by now---.



Hi,

The JF17 is more like a Honda Civic SI---and this aircraft on its own merit is not all talk---there is a lot more to it that what meets the eye.

Mr. Khan, bless you, for your openess! I could read the feeling underneath your text. Thanks for sharing.

In cybernatic loops it is exactly what you stated i.e. thinking process and AI/machine response loop. Attitude, hence culture, is the key to your industrial growth in your old country.

CAC and PAC have worked together for JF like hand in glove...yet the images of their factories tell a different tale.

In any transformational framework you will see that need of change in culture ie. paradigms, is the key to breaking through. So is the case of industrialisation.

Why is it that NE Asians have great tendency of rapid industrialisation than say South Asia?

Coming back to JF, this is one big achievement..given the context of development and industrial capacity.

Bench marking against Grippen or perhaps F16 must only be applied to seek areas of improvement in the product, production methodology and industrial development glide path.

For the rest JF is a new class of aircraft. And in its own class, with your industrial capacity, your PAC has done rather well.

 

[Dr Shaheryar]

Mr. Khan, bless you, for your openess! I could read the feeling underneath your text. Thanks for sharing.

In cybernatic loops it is exactly what you stated i.e. thinking process and AI/machine response loop. Attitude, hence culture, is the key to your industrial growth in your old country.

CAC and PAC have worked together for JF like hand in glove...yet the images of their factories tell a different tale.

In any transformational framework you will see that need of change in culture ie. paradigms, is the key to breaking through. So is the case of industrialisation.

Why is it that NE Asians have great tendency of rapid industrialisation than say South Asia?

Coming back to JF, this is one big achievement..given the context of development and industrial capacity.

Bench marking against Grippen or perhaps F16 must only be applied to seek areas of improvement in the product, production methodology and industrial development glide path.

For the rest JF is a new class of aircraft. And in its own class, with your industrial capacity, your PAC has done rather well.

I couldn't agree more. This is our first aircraft in making. Will eventually develop into a radical fighter. Give it some time and some investment and it will turn out to be a mainstream fighter.