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Architecture of Zia's Islamization

I really can't understand how Pak members here - even the staunchest army supporters - still don't seem to understand that mixing religion with a nation's military is a recipe for disaster.

A nation's armed forces should be loyal to the people and the motherland before all else - even God.

When a soldier is taught that there is an authority higher than their superiors, the whole system will break down.

This was Zia's greatest disservice to Pakistan. Which is why there are so many rogue officers and ttp sympathizers within the ranks.

A nation should know that whoever threatens their country, be it Hindu or Muslim the forces will smash them down equally to protect civil society.

I am not saying soldiers shouldn't be allowed to be religious but they can't be allowed to question the people's authority.
 
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Islam does not require you to speak, even learn Arabic
where does Islam force you to make certificates
Islam doesn't force women to become ninja turtles, they should just cover their heads so the look decent, same goes for men they should look decent and both should guard their modesty
Men wear what they want as long as its decent
no one is forcing you for religious education, just read and understand Quran at home and that's ok.
having education is made obligatory upon every male and FEMALE Muslim, so please speak when you know what Islamic Laws are and it is these very laws which become the basis of the Sharia provided that some idiotic extremist mullah doesn't bend the rules to his extremist ideas, i don't know how everyone has made Islam look like an oppressive religion?

What Islam says doesn't matter here as no two sect agree on anything good, but they do have agreements to make Islam as much barbaric & backward as possible. So, what you think doesn't matter, What matter is the ideology & mindset of people who are pushing for Shariah" by hook or by crook. And no sane person of 21st century will agree on their barbaric ideology.
 
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You said that we can't understand Quran unless we read different things.

I guess I conveyed in wrong manner, I said it helps to understand Quran. My prayers, and without this words means no use of it, so no problem in changing from Urdu to Arabic. 78% have no issue in Islam being used in state affairs and Urdu changing to Arabic. And if we have democracy then it should be implemented isn't?

If you can't understand it in your native language than what's the grantee that you will understand it by enforcing foreign language? Heck majority of people can't even understand Iqbal's poetry properly even though Urdu is our national.
Iqbal poetry is not compulsory, while reading quran, prayer surely is. And these two are meant to be recited in Arabic format, other things can be ignore .. Let me elaborate it in this manner. It's not compulsory to know Arabic, but reading first Quran in English, then Urdu do creates double effort of understanding Quran.

What is the criteria of being scholar these days? Every mullah think that whatever religion he is propagating is true rest are not.

There are two major systems which are running in Islamic world to be called a Scholar who can give fatwa (which is your cause of concern).

First kind Alims (those who can explain to common people for already formed ruling)

1) Madrasa course to become Alims .. (there is lot of things which are missing in this sector even, but for basic stuff they are good enough)
2) Masters in Islamic ruling (this depends upon what ever is your specialization, like bone doctor can't give perception for eye thing)

Then comes those who are known as Muftis The specialist of their field.


Show me where in Quran it's said that make your women Ninja and state should enforced it? Where God has given guidelines to women to safeguard their sanctity, before that there is also guidelines for men and one of those is lower your gaze. If someone is Muslim he/she should follow without any danda.

Already mentioned not enforced by the state, but compulsory for women. When it comes to men we will talk about lowering the gaze etc

In your earlier post you said "Why not" for enforcing beard, now you are taking U-Turn.

Yarr I never said anything about enforcing. I am saying, when it's compulsory, then what is the issue of having it.. read again.. I clear said in my last line, there are two extremes. But to avoid one, you shouldn't start following other one.

I already stated those things, and you have guidance for these aspect in Quran

Only few important ones are there i.e. Murder, Inheritance, Adulatory etc. - and non of those are barbaric like our scholars have made. for rest you can make laws which suites as per your society & time, only thing you have to care is that you don't go against laid principle (which is not be just, don't go to extreme and kind) and you don't need to become Arab to follow this.

no scholar made such thing. It's we our society, which says it comes from some scholars, or think normal molvi of the Scholar with specialization of everything.

Like We don't belong to arab to speak Arabic, even Urdu is not our mother language. It was device in India, Pakistani side were strictly following their own mother languages before 1947.
There is nothing wrong as long as these are ones self beliefs but it is wrong to enforce your views on others. Allow women what she wants to wear(bikni or burka its her choice), similarly allow man to have facial hairs as he like (and no a foot long beard), who are you to decide weather Ahemadi is a Muslim or not

well, you don't understand Quran, so don't jump into this discussion. It's not Me deciding anything, it's an establish fact between whole muslim world that those who don't accept Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) Last prophet is not a muslim. So they are not, like other established facts like E=MC2. or 2+2 is 4 not 2+1
 
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What Islam says doesn't matter here as no two sect agree on anything good, but they do have agreements to make Islam as much barbaric & backward as possible. So, what you think doesn't matter, What matter is the ideology & mindset of people who are pushing for Shariah" by hook or by crook. And no sane person of 21st century will agree on their barbaric ideology.
well if the the case then blame the PEOPLE not the RELIGION, if followed correctly, Islam is a complete code for life, which includes business of the state as well as personal dealings
 
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no Hijjaj Bin Yusuf will send his army even against a stronger opponent, at the call of a captured Muslim female

Yeah free Muslim females and make non-Muslim females slaves and loot their wealth. :lol:

well if the the case then blame the PEOPLE not the RELIGION, if followed correctly, Islam is a complete code for life, which includes business of the state as well as personal dealings

I am not blaming "Islam" but Religion of today's Muslim. Islam provide guidance to deal with any kind of matter but today's Religion have code, laws & enforcement for all the matters. Try to understand the difference than defend the Religion which i am apposing.
 
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zia ul haq era was black chapter in the history of Pakistan...the after effects of zia are deadly as we have witnessed already. He may have done few good things but most of his actions has cost Pakistan heavily.
 
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Yeah free Muslim females and make non-Muslim females slaves and loot their wealth. :lol:



I am not blaming "Islam" but Religion of today's Muslim. Islam provide guidance to deal with any kind of matter but today's Religion have code, laws & enforcement for all the matters. Try to understand the difference than defend the Religion which i am apposing.
Islam IS a religion which provides a complete code for life, so its gonna be everywhere yo go buddy, provided that you follow it correctly, and it was ISLAM who told that treat your slaves like you treat yourselves, and slave cultrue is now history, so todays Hijaj bin Yusuf wont do anything like that
 
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all pakistan needs is an honest leader. nothing fancy just someone with a balanced view
 
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If you keep beard just to follow the Great Prophet then few questions will arise-

- The Great Prophet used to wear a specific type of dress as he used to be in extremely Hot Arab. Should a Canadian Muslim in Vancouver have to follow the same dress in -20 deg temp.?
- The great Prophet never used plane, train, car as those were not invented that time. Should an ideal Muslim follow the same conveyance in present days just to follow the great Prophet?
- The Great Prophet used to eat a specific type of food suitable for desert areas. Should an Ideal Muslim follow the same food habit sitting in highly fertile Punjab where verities of crops are cultivated?

lol, sunnah is not that.
- Yes there is sunnah defined dressing, but Did Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) ask everyone to dream up like this?
- Yes, Sunnah is to ride camal, horses, but Did Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) prohibited others to stop using other means of transportation?
- Yes, dates, fish and specific food is sunnah, but Did Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) enforce specific type of food?

Sunnah are , one Prophet which did or said or preferred or given approval of . And one which while Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) doing it he ask to strictly follow. level for both are different.

But don't confuse it with state enforcement of sunnah with good to follow, best to follow or have to follow.

all pakistan needs is an honest leader. nothing fancy just someone with a balanced view


Ok Make me one.
 
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Islam IS a religion which provides a complete code for life, so its gonna be everywhere yo go buddy, provided that you follow it correctly, and it was ISLAM who told that treat your slaves like you treat yourselves, and slave cultrue is now history, so todays Hijaj bin Yusuf wont do anything like that

LOL!!! Islam discouraged slavery and made it difficult, and to free slaves as punishments of misdeeds, While people like him used to make even free people slaves. If people like him continued ruling the world than we still will be having slavery.
 
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I like to add one thing, if Arabic becomes our national language, and people start learning Arabic, suicide bombing can also be bring down. People has to go through TTP recuirement process to find our why it's good to understand what you read..
 
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LOL!!! Islam discouraged slavery and made it difficult, and to free slaves as punishments of misdeeds, While people like him used to make even free people slaves. If people like him continued ruling the world than we still will be having slavery.
sorry, but he was still awesome
 
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I guess I conveyed in wrong manner, I said it helps to understand Quran. My prayers, and without this words means no use of it, so no problem in changing from Urdu to Arabic. 78% have no issue in Islam being used in state affairs and Urdu changing to Arabic. And if we have democracy then it should be implemented isn't?


Iqbal poetry is not compulsory, while reading quran, prayer surely is. And these two are meant to be recited in Arabic format, other things can be ignore .. Let me elaborate it in this manner. It's not compulsory to know Arabic, but reading first Quran in English, then Urdu do creates double effort of understanding Quran.



There are two major systems which are running in Islamic world to be called a Scholar who can give fatwa (which is your cause of concern).

First kind Alims (those who can explain to common people for already formed ruling)

1) Madrasa course to become Alims .. (there is lot of things which are missing in this sector even, but for basic stuff they are good enough)
2) Masters in Islamic ruling (this depends upon what ever is your specialization, like bone doctor can't give perception for eye thing)

Then comes those who are known as Muftis The specialist of their field.




Already mentioned not enforced by the state, but compulsory for women. When it comes to men we will talk about lowering the gaze etc



Yarr I never said anything about enforcing. I am saying, when it's compulsory, then what is the issue of having it.. read again.. I clear said in my last line, there are two extremes. But to avoid one, you shouldn't start following other one.



no scholar made such thing. It's we our society, which says it comes from some scholars, or think normal molvi of the Scholar with specialization of everything.

Like We don't belong to arab to speak Arabic, even Urdu is not our mother language. It was device in India, Pakistani side were strictly following their own mother languages before 1947.


well, you don't understand Quran, so don't jump into this discussion. It's not Me deciding anything, it's an establish fact between whole muslim world that those who don't accept Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) Last prophet is not a muslim. So they are not, like other established facts like E=MC2. or 2+2 is 4 not 2+1


Maybe it's because you are a man of science but you are not factoring in the human element in all of this. There is no black and white when it comes to religion - there will never be complete agreement amongst Muslims about Islamic laws - which is why it is better to leave each to his own.

The countries leaders' job is to maintain a peaceful, progressive environment for civilians. Let civilians make their own life choices - God is the judge so why are you all fretting?

Also, you say sunnah is almost like a farz - this is a matter of perspective. If you want to live exactly like the sahabas in this century then go ahead but most day to day sunnah of the time are no longer suitable. Will you use a Miswak rather than a toothbrush and paste? Must we chop off a mans head when we have the lethal injection (assuming one agrees with executing people). Do we need witnesses for rape when we have medical tests? These are the things we Muslims need to start factoring into Islamic law but people are too scared to talk about change.

You are right that neither extreme should be followed but that is exactly what Zia's overwrought policies were. They laid the foundations for the extremism you see today - he should never have meddled in social engineering, which his educational and and government policies were designed to do.
 
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Do we need witnesses for rape when we have medical tests?
there is a question i have to ask about that, why did our Ulemas reject the use of DNA tests, why they still stick to witnesses, both the things do the same thing, they tell who commited the crime? then why leave the more trusted one? i mean wittnesses were the only option back then but now DNA tests are more credible. its not like a rapist is gonna commit a rape in broad daylight in an open market so that he can leave witnesses?
 
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there is a question i have to ask about that, why did our Ulemas reject the use of DNA tests, why they still stick to witnesses, both the things do the same thing, they tell who commited the crime? then why leave the more trusted one? i mean wittnesses were the only option back then but now DNA tests are more credible. its not like a rapist is gonna commit a rape in broad daylight in an open market so that he can leave witnesses?

It's because our Ulema's are too scared to apply logic because the masses (and some backwards mullahs) only understand if things are explicitly stated in the Quran and Sunnah. If wise Ulema try to be 'too clever' they will be rejected.

Unfortunately that is the cycle we are in - and as you can probably tell, it will never let us develop properly.
 
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