Architecture of Zia's Islamization

[KingMamba]

Hajaj Bin Yusuf

You mean the dude who bombed Mecca?

 

[Dubious]

My question to everyone is based on this:

Zia has been dead for over 2 decades! That is enough time to undo what was wrong...No one attempted to...By throwing the blame on a dead man who cant support himself from the grave is shameful than throwing it on living politicians who gave a blind eye to the direction Pakistan went....

My question is:

If you hate Zia as bad as you claim then the hatred should be strong enough to burn alive the Politicians of the past decade as they all had a hand in ignoring the situation and not bothering about it while only concentrating on how fat their stomach and pockets can get! I literally mean every politician from 1988 till date who is alive or has had a hand in the ignorant movement!

 

[Black Mamba1]

My question to everyone is based on this:

Zia has been dead for over 2 decades! That is enough time to undo what was wrong...No one attempted to...By throwing the blame on a dead man who cant support himself from the grave is shameful than throwing it on living politicians who gave a blind eye to the direction Pakistan went....

My question is:

If you hate Zia as bad as you claim then the hatred should be strong enough to burn alive the Politicians of the past decade as they all had a hand in ignoring the situation and not bothering about it while only concentrating on how fat their stomach and pockets can get! I literally mean every politician from 1988 till date who is alive or has had a hand in the ignorant movement!

It is easier to destroy peace and rationale in the society by spreading hatred, it is very difficult and time consuming to restore/develop the same.

 

[Silverblaze]

And the most useless debate continues.

The thing with military dictators is that after they are dead, the whole system collapses. why?

They never build up institutions because they like total control. Gen Zia who was trained at Fort Leavaenworth lost Siachin and introduced one of the most corrupt families like the Sharifs and gillanis into politics.

As far as his islamization is concerned, it was futile because it did not end Pakistan's structural problems and the decadent bureaucratic dispensation lived on.

Military dictators come with absolute power but fail to reform basic systems. And yes whenever Pakistan had military dictators coming or governing , there was some sort of war.

Anyways, this is for people who understand not for people who see US trained generals as messiahs.

 

[Dubious]

It is easier to destroy peace and rationale in the society by spreading hatred, it is very difficult and time consuming to restore/develop the same.

True but a person with a little bit of grey matter would have realized this and made amendments to start restoring the crap happening rather than turning a blind eye and then crying oh it was Zia who did it...20 yrs and I still cant help undo anything...then shame on those who ruled for 20 yrs!! Double shame for throwing the blame and not being brave enough to handle the blame!

And the most useless debate continues.

The thing with military dictators is that after they are dead, the whole system collapses. why?

They never build up institutions because they like total control. Gen Zia who was trained at Fort Leavaenworth lost Siachin and introduced one of the most corrupt families like the Sharifs and gillanis into politics.

As far as his islamization is concerned, it was futile because it did not end Pakistan's structural problems and the decadent bureaucratic dispensation lived on.

Military dictators come with absolute power but fail to reform basic systems. And yes whenever Pakistan had military dictators coming or governing , there was some sort of war.

Anyways, this is for people who understand not for people who see US trained generals as messiahs.

Again blaming Zia will not accomplish anything....If he introduced Shariffs and Gillanis...well guess what the votes also went to Shariffs so it is also our fault for accepting them even after 20yrs ....alongside eating the dessert of crying Zia did that and this....

 

[Black Mamba1]

I agree. Thats why I asked the question in post #29 that what is being done in Pakistan to undo the those bad policies.

I also exprssed my surprise on how a single person can screw the nation in such a bad way. If Zia has to be blamed the other people part of establishment cannot avoid the blame for not protesting.

 

[EasyNow]

True but a person with a little bit of grey matter would have realized this and made amendments to start restoring the crap happening rather than turning a blind eye and then crying oh it was Zia who did it...20 yrs and I still cant help undo anything...then shame on those who ruled for 20 yrs!! Double shame for throwing the blame and not being brave enough to handle the blame!


Again blaming Zia will not accomplish anything....If he introduced Shariffs and Gillanis...well guess what the votes also went to Shariffs so it is also our fault for accepting them even after 20yrs ....alongside eating the dessert of crying Zia did that and this....

The Zia generation is just growing up now, that is why everyone looks back to him to understand why we are in this position today. Unfortunately, it took decades for everyone to see the actual impact of his policies.

How can we learn from our mistakes if we do not study them? Many people are still talking about Sharia law for Pakistan (whatever that really means), they need to understand that some of the worst things in history have been born out of good intentions.

 

[livingdead]

can somebody give concrete example of islamization so that one can see whether it can be reversed.
I know reversing it is very difficult because the people who came through the system will see it as natural and oppose the change.

 

[Fracker]

Maybe it's because you are a man of science but you are not factoring in the human element in all of this. There is no black and white when it comes to religion - there will never be complete agreement amongst Muslims about Islamic laws - which is why it is better to leave each to his own.

The countries leaders' job is to maintain a peaceful, progressive environment for civilians. Let civilians make their own life choices - God is the judge so why are you all fretting?

Also, you say sunnah is almost like a farz - this is a matter of perspective. If you want to live exactly like the sahabas in this century then go ahead but most day to day sunnah of the time are no longer suitable. Will you use a Miswak rather than a toothbrush and paste? Must we chop off a mans head when we have the lethal injection (assuming one agrees with executing people). Do we need witnesses for rape when we have medical tests? These are the things we Muslims need to start factoring into Islamic law but people are too scared to talk about change.

You are right that neither extreme should be followed but that is exactly what Zia's overwrought policies were. They laid the foundations for the extremism you see today - he should never have meddled in social engineering, which his educational and and government policies were designed to do.

When it comes to Islam, most of the things are Black and white, only practice may be the gray area. Islam speaks about nations rather then states, even before 1911, there was no concept of countries. There was states, and empires, both were totally integrated with this nation concept.

No dear, zia era haven't done that. But put real moderate Islam in front of everyone. He could order to the newscaster to hide behind the abayah, hide face bla bla, but his order was to put dopata on the head. He could order to blow up the girls school or education only through madrassa but he order to put Islamic clause into education system. He could order every theif get copped the hands, or every adultery criminal get lash etc, eye to eye thing for every case, but instead he put them as only extreme punishments in case only needed. So o on.. At his time, there was no conflict between shia sunni or anything. his Taliban's implement peace in Afghanistan, who open up schools, colleges, and Kabul university. My cousin complete his MD only after the university was reopened and women were also doing medical there since, Taliban used to say where we will take our women for medical? similarly, I remember one headline of newspaper in 1997, 98% of Afghanistan is under peace because of Taliban take over. what ever, nothing point's things towards zia mismanagement. The only thing is, foreign elements plant murder for him which cause great loss to Islamic world.

Issue of TTP or people falling pray for them is not Madrassa, but lack of Islamic Education, which gave free hand to TTP to say what every they want to preach under Islam.

 

[Black Mamba1]

can somebody give concrete example of islamization so that one can see whether it can be reversed.
I know reversing it is very difficult because the people who came through the system will see it as natural and oppose the change.

For example I came to know that in school book History starts from Muslim invasion without referring the cultural heritage of 5000 years. No reference of the great Gandhar era when Pakistan/Afghanistan showed path to whole India in the area of Art and Culture . It was also taught that all Hindus are bad and they are the reason of all problems/suffering of Muslim ( please correct me if wrong).

Now if a boy learned those in his school days in 1985, he is now a middle aged teacher in a school. How he will teach anything different. It is extremely difficult to unlearn even if you want.

 

[livingdead]

For example I came to know that in school book History starts from Muslim invasion without referring the cultural heritage of 5000 years. No reference of the great Gandhar era when Pakistan/Afghanistan showed path to whole India in the area of Art and Culture . It was also taught that all Hindus are bad and they are the reason of all problems/suffering of Muslim ( please correct me if wrong).

Now if a boy learned those in his school days in 1985, he is now a middle aged teacher in a school. How he will teach anything different. It is extremely difficult to unlearn even if you want.

I doubt they ever tought that, even before zia.
ok apart from text books, what else were impacted in islamization. Were any structural changes made to armed forces.
The criteria for a president to be muslim, was it before zia or added by zia.

 

[Black Mamba1]

When it comes to Islam, most of the things are Black and white, only practice may be the gray area. Islam speaks about nations rather then states, even before 1911, there was no concept of countries. There was states, and empires, both were totally integrated with this nation concept.

No dear, zia era haven't done that. But put real moderate Islam in front of everyone. He could order to the newscaster to hide behind the abayah, hide face bla bla, but his order was to put dopata on the head. He could order to blow up the girls school or education only through madrassa but he order to put Islamic clause into education system. He could order every theif get copped the hands, or every adultery criminal get lash etc, eye to eye thing for every case, but instead he put them as only extreme punishments in case only needed. So o on.. At his time, there was no conflict between shia sunni or anything. his Taliban's implement peace in Afghanistan, who open up schools, colleges, and Kabul university. My cousin complete his MD only after the university was reopened and women were also doing medical there since, Taliban used to say where we will take our women for medical? similarly, I remember one headline of newspaper in 1997, 98% of Afghanistan is under peace because of Taliban take over. what ever, nothing point's things towards zia mismanagement. The only thing is, foreign elements plant murder for him which cause great loss to Islamic world.

Issue of TTP or people falling pray for them is not Madrassa, but lack of Islamic Education, which gave free hand to TTP to say what every they want to preach under Islam.

Oh....he is really the poster boy of moderate Islam

 

[Fracker]

Oh....he is really the poster boy of moderate Islam

Certainly, What ever makes you happy.. But truth is much different from some so call propaganda machines of Wests..

 

[Vinod2070]

I like to add one thing, if Arabic becomes our national language, and people start learning Arabic, suicide bombing can also be bring down. People has to go through TTP recuirement process to find our why it's good to understand what you read..

All the 9/11 suicide bombers were native Arabs. Most were Saudis.

In Iraq, there are many suicide attacks by Arabs.

 

[Black Mamba1]

Certainly, What ever makes you happy.. But truth is much different from some so call propaganda machines of Wests..

On the contrary , throughout his divine life he got whole hearted support of the west