Alternative theories to the Mumbai attack

[vish]

I'm not disputing that.

Sorry, my bad. I guess I misunderstood you.

 

[Awesome]

Sorry, my bad. I guess I misunderstood you.

No prob. It was just an FYI post .

 

[donrahul]

One thing becomes clear in this subcontinental soup of confusion..
1) You accept to a crime and it is clear that it is done under duress.
2) You deny a crime and denial is the first proof of skulduggery afoot..

I say, its indeed rum

 

[Nihat]

New Delhi: The terror strike on Mumbai was actually a plan hatched by “Hindu Zionists” and “Western Zionists”, including the Mossad, said a self-styled Pakistan security expert on a Pakistan news television show, uploaded on hotklix | Home Page.

“Inki shaklein Hinduonwali hain, jis zabaan mein guftagoo kar rahein hain, woh zabaan koi Pakistani istemaal nahin karta hai (They look like Hindus. No Pakistani speaks the language they chatted in),” said Zaid Hamid, referring to the terrorists on the show ‘Mujhe Ikhtilaf Hai’ (I differ) on Pakistan’s News One channel. The sensationalist channel was launched in November last year.

Hamid said it was a “badly planned” operation that had gone horribly wrong. “9/11 jo Americans ne kiya tha usko bahut khoobsurat camouflage kiya tha. Unhone media mein perception management bahut acchha kiya. Indians ne wahi game repeat karne ki koshish ki, lekin akal to hain nahin. In ahmakon ne complete disaster kiya isko handle karne mein. (The Americans executed the 9/11 attack perfectly. They managed the media very well. The Indians tried to repeat the formula but goofed up. The idiots made a complete mess of it).”

He said that the attackers wore saffron ‘Hindu Zionist bands’, which no Muslim would tie. Hamid also said that early on, the three ATS men investigating the network of terror within India’s security agencies and radical right were killed. That ensured the investigations would hit a dead end. ‘26/11 to stop probe into Purohit plot’

New Delhi: A self-styled Pakistani security expert, Zaid Hamid, has said that the terror attacks in Mumbai was a ploy by the Indian government to divert attention from India’s domestic terrorists to Pakistan. The programme was aired in Pakistan’s News One channel. In reply to his comment, the anchor Qudsia Qadri added that with the killings, the investigations into the Samjhauta Express carnage would be halted.

Marvi Memon, glamorous Pakistan Muslim League member, on the same programme, was appalled at the Pakistan government’s expansion of the “India-appeasement package” by initially agreeing to send ISI chief to India. Blogger and journalist Farrukh Khan Pitafi is miffed.

He wrote: “During such a long coverage of the mishap not a single outlet pointed out that Hemant Karkare... was the same man whose dismissal was Narendra Modi’s biggest demand. Or that he was the man on the verge of uncovering the home-grown terror franchise of the Hindu extremists. No channel mentioned Colonel Purohit once during the live telecast, no not even CNN, BBC or CBS. It is sad.”

Really , the Pakistani members of the forum , can you please clarify if this was actually said in a TV channel (the bold part) , the rest I'm sure was said.

he said 9/11 was an american conspiracy ?? , does this guy enjoy a good repute in Pakistan or is he just a random idiot common to both sides.

 

[fatman17]

Really , the Pakistani members of the forum , can you please clarify if this was actually said in a TV channel (the bold part) , the rest I'm sure was said.

he said 9/11 was an american conspiracy ?? , does this guy enjoy a good repute in Pakistan or is he just a random idiot common to both sides.

never ever heard about this guy!

 

[Awesome]

Really , the Pakistani members of the forum , can you please clarify if this was actually said in a TV channel (the bold part) , the rest I'm sure was said.

he said 9/11 was an american conspiracy ?? , does this guy enjoy a good repute in Pakistan or is he just a random idiot common to both sides.

He has a program dedicated to non-conforming opinions about world events.

Its a show on PTV I think. And he has a significant following.

 

[fatman17]

He has a program dedicated to non-conforming opinions about world events.

Its a show on PTV I think. And he has a significant following.

i am afraid i dont watch PTV.

 

[donrahul]

He has a program dedicated to non-conforming opinions about world events.

Its a show on PTV I think. And he has a significant following.

What about you? Do u really believe what he tells?!

 

[Flintlock]

Non-COnforming is another word for Whatever-makes-you-feel-better.

The government of Pakistan has a responsibility to let their citizens know the harsh realities rather than some fairytale where everything is the fault of the Zionist and the Hindutva Nazis and the innocent Pakistanis are caught in between.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

What is going India going to do about it, now that everyone in India is wholeheartedly in agreement that Pakistan is behind it? Are you guys going to attack yet? Or has there been a roadblock in the investigation?

 

[Geromix]

What is going India going to do about it, now that everyone in India is wholeheartedly in agreement that Pakistan is behind it? Are you guys going to attack yet? Or has there been a roadblock in the investigation?

Official Indian response to that question-
We will wait and see how Pakistan responds.All options on the table.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Official Indian response to that question-
We will wait and see how Pakistan responds.All options on the table.

Pakistan has already offered a response - No one is being handed over, and nothing can be done unless India shares evidence, in which case the Pakistanis will be tried in Pakistan.

We have also proposed a Joint Investigation. So, ball back in India's court.

As I said elsewhere, this is all a Tamasha from the GoI, to keep up pressure on Pakistan and try and paint it as uncooperative while the actual investigation continues.

I find it hard to believe that the GoI is stupid enough to think that merely handing over a list with no evidence of links between the suspects and MUmbai would be acted upon. This whole charade is to keep the issue front and center and try and ensure Pakistani cooperation if and when the evidence does become available.

 

[niaz]

Really , the Pakistani members of the forum , can you please clarify if this was actually said in a TV channel (the bold part) , the rest I'm sure was said.

he said 9/11 was an american conspiracy ?? , does this guy enjoy a good repute in Pakistan or is he just a random idiot common to both sides.

I have seen Marvi Memon and Hamid Mir on the Capital talk. Basically it was implied that BJP stands most to gain from this heinous attack, therefore involvement of Hindu extremists cannot be ruled out.

My comment on this is that just as India has Star News which is openly saying that Pakistan Navy brought these to the Indian shores; we have equally vociferous people such as Marvi Memon and Taliban lovers such as Hamid Mir. Hamid Mir has met Mullah Omer, has reported from Afghanistan in the past and also probably met Osama bin Laden himself; he is very pro Taliban. He will try his best to blame anyone else but Taliban for any attacks inside or outside Pakistan. I had never before heard of Marvi Memon. She is from PML (Q). Understand that she was nominated for seats reserved for women. Think she is using this opportunity to make herself famous.

It is a fact that GOP has nothing whatsoever to gain and every thing to lose. Pak FM was in New Delhi when this attack happened. Can you think of a more in-opportune moment! Also there is no doubt that BJP will try to make a political capital out of it. However IMO, the planning and the execution carries hall mark of Al Qaeda. It created world wide publicity, exactly what AlQaeda desires. It is more than likely that people came from Pakistan, whether from Karachi or any other place along the coast, one can’t say.

This is also a fact that GOP has little control on non state actors. We can’t safeguard our own hotels, how can we try to stop attacks in India? Sanity dictates that both India and Pakistan work together to eliminate the menace of terrorism rather than sabre rattling.

 

[Nihat]

This is by far and away the most useful and informative post I have seen on the forum for some time now.

This is what I have wanted to say that GOP itself cannot support such activities as it found be found out by the world soon enough , Pakistan has to show the same resolve it is showing in NWFP against Taliban in Pakistani Kashmir too.

Blame is shared on both sides , India has tried to Politicize this whole issue internally (which is shameful) and Pakistan , instead of listening to Fugitive talk from India , should go and strike those camps down in Kashmir - it is in their long term favor only.

Now peace talks are dead for at least 6 months and that leaves no hope for Kashmir , it will continue to remain trash land as their is no scope or reason for development on either side.

 

[dr.umer]

THE NARIMAN HOUSE - In the light of press reports. ​

From CBC News (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation)

“In a telephone interview with CBC News from outside the centre, freelance journalist Arun Asthhana said there are reports that some of the militants had stayed at a guest house there for up to 15 days before the attacks.

“They had a huge mass of ammunition, arms and food there,” Asthhana said.
That some stayed there before the attacks seem no longer in question. Later news reports state that the terrorists came to Nariman House posing as Malaysian students and were given lodging. Why Ultra-orthodox Jews would give lodging to these unknown Malaysian Muslim students is baffling; they could have been ‘terrorists’. After all they did not know them.

However, it is well known that those housing quarters are rented only to religious Jews passing through Mumbai, so much so that the Indian Police wanted to know why they were rented to non-Jews in this instance.

From Times of India

“Police are trying to find out how Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews. Police has taken all the records books of for verification."

Guardian of UK

“Locals said the owners of Nariman House was a Jewish Israeli family who rented out flats to other religious Jews."

Regarding food ordered in Nariman House.

Mid-Day News - India

“The role that Nariman House is coming to play in this entire attack drama is puzzling. Last night, residents ordered close to 100 kilograms of meat and other food, enough to feed an army or a bunch of people for twenty days. Shortly thereafter, the ten odd militants moved in, obviously, indicating that the food and meat was ordered, keeping their visit in mind, another cop added.”

DNA INDIA

They reported:

“The terrorists came to Colaba on Wednesday evening,” Mukund Shelke, who runs a grocery shop at Colaba Market, said. “Before barging into Nariman House, they had purchased adequate food to last them at least three days,” he said.
“They had purchased around two crates of chicken and liquor worth Rs25,000 from two shops in Colaba,” another resident Joseph D’Mello said.

Here the quote says that “they” had purchased the food, and from the text, which would be a translation of the eyewitness account, it would suggest that the terrorists did the shopping. But the policeman’s report and quote is more credible because any group of terrorists going to take over a place during a city-wide attack would not stop to do shopping first, selecting meat, and liquor and other items, unless of course they were right at home.

The Attacks Start:

According to a narrative all attackers came in by boats.

Why they did not stay in Mumbai after spending days scouting the place is unknown. That would have made much more sense. Maybe the commanders came in just in time for the operation.

It is now being reported that they landed and split into groups with two men going to the office of the ultra-orthodox Jewish group Chabad-Lubavitch which runs Nariman house. There they supposedly held an unknown number of persons hostage, while killing some.

However, eye-witnesses, and the earliest reports, state that all the men from the boat went straight to the Nariman House complex before dispersing to carry out attacks.

Mid-Day News

“Mumbai: India’s financial capital, Mumbai seems to be going through its longest night for the last two days. Wednesday, 9.40 pm, the affluent south Mumbai was struck by terrorists, at 12 different locations, including the VT station, a hub for all railway trains, to two of the most luxurious hotels, Taj Mahal and Oberoi Trident.

24 hours later, the attention has riveted to these hotels, and a tiny nondescript building, barely a few meters away from the Taj Mahal hotel. Housing a five-storied guest house for Israeli nationals, this building is turning out to be the ‘den’ for the militants.

“I saw 6 to 7 boats coming in on Wednesday evening and about ten people unloaded many bags from these boats and then gradually took them into the building, Nariman House’, Vitthal Tandel, a fisherman in the area said. “The building has many rooms and these are used as guest houses by travelers, largely Israeli residents. None of us know what their names are”, he said.

“Virendra Ghunawat, a television journalist who has been tracking the Nariman House shootout since the time it took place Wednesday night, said even the cops have been cagey about details”.

Guardian UK

“They came by sea, on a small skiff, and made their way in the dark through the narrow streets of old Colaba to the six-storey apartment building called Nariman House. There they stayed – an unknown number of mystery gunmen who besieged the building from the inside.

The New York Times

“When the terrorists landed in front of Mr. Dhanur’s boat, they were just three blocks straight down a narrow lane from Nariman House, a five-storey building housing a Jewish center run by a young Rabbi, Gavriel Holtzberg, and his wife, Rivka, who had moved from New York.

But the attack does not appear to have started there. According to India’s Home Ministry, the first shots were fired at the train station, and soon after that at the Leopold Café.”

The account of eyewitnesses and the earliest reports are very clear. The ‘terrorists’ went into Nariman House. Later reports keep insisting that they ’stormed’ the house.

What did they look like?

At least some of the terrorists were fair-skinned foreigners.

Guardian Indian commandos storm Mumbai hotels | World news | guardian.co.ukUK

“One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were “white”"

“I went into the building late last night,” he said. “I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.”

Now, Indians know fair skinned Indians and Pakistanis. They meet them every day, especially in Mumbai, where all the upper class Indians congregate.

Indians know foreigners and they call Americans and Europeans “foreigners” or “white”. It is easy for an Indian to tell the difference between a fair skinned Indian or Pakistani and a “foreigner”.

Other eyewitnesses at other locations also describe the terrorists as “foreign” or fair skinned.

BBC

Then, the “foreign looking, fair skinned” men, as Mr Mishra remembers them, simply carried on killing.

“They did not look Indian, they looked foreign. One of them, I thought, had blonde hair. The other had a punkish hairstyle. They were neatly dressed,” says Mr Amir.

While at the Nariman House:

DNA India

“Some residents claimed that the suspects were keeping track of the police’s movements through a television in Nariman House.

“When the news of top police officials getting killed flashed in the television, we heard loud noises from the flat. It seemed they were celebrating,” Anand Raorane, a resident in a building opposite Nariman House, said.”

Some in India claim that the terrorists were targeting some of India’s top anti-terrorist officers, and indeed a number of top officers including Hemant Karare, who were in the process of investigating an explosive case of terrorist activities by army officers and politicians, were killed. It is very strange that these exceptionally experienced men would so easily be killed.

Some reports say they were ambushed. It was at the time that the news of these men’s demise was announced that sounds of celebration came from the Chabad office.

The Arrrest of Israeli Security Officer

While the standoff between the security forces and the terrorists in Nariman House was going on an Israeli ’security officer’ at the Israeli consulate close by was arrested while running to the scene.

Jerusalem Post

“The security officer at the Israeli consulate in Mumbai was arrested by Indian police as he raced toward the Chabad House last Wednesday after Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg telephoned to say it was under attack.”

Was this ‘attack’ referring to attack by the terrorists or by security forces? It is not clear as yet. The officer was released from jail a few hours later according to the Jerusalem Post.

Also India continuously refused Israeli offers to help with the crisis.

Jerusalem, Nov 28: India has turned down an offer by Israel to send its Crack Commandos to Mumbai, where a Jewish centre has been taken over in the terrorist attack which have claimed so far over 160 lives, media reports said here.”

The Nanny and the rescue of the two-year old Moshe Holtzberg.

As the standoff progressed, the nanny of the two-year old child of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, Sandra Samuel, came running out with the little boy.

Whether he was the subject of a daring rescue or was sent out by his parents is unclear. The dizzying array of reports, many contradicting the others, that describe this incident leaves the question unanswered. Only when police question the nanny would this be resolved.

The number of hostages and terrorists at Nariman

According to recent police reports there were fifteen terrorists in all who came by boat.

Times Online

“At least five terrorist gunmen might have escaped the carnage in Mumbai and could strike again, it emerged yesterday as a video surfaced showing the capture of the gang’s sole known surviving member.”

“However, a hijacked Indian fishing boat used by the gunmen had equipment for 15 men on board when it was discovered adrift – suggesting that several gunmen could still be at large.”

“Fifteen winter jackets were found, fifteen toothbrushes,” a police source said. “That more terrorists are loose is possible.”

Again there are conflicting reports on the number of terrorists and possible hostages that were in Nariman House. At the end of the seige by security forces, there were six bodies of hostages found. Some reports insist five bodies were found plus two alleged terrorists. This will remain unclear until Indian security personnel who conducted the raid tell their stories.

It would seem from many eyewitness reports and local media that as the standoff continued, there were only two ‘hostages’, the Rabbi and his wife, and the rest were terrorists.

DNA India

"The six terrorists who have made an Israeli family hostage at Nariman House building in Colaba can battle with the security agencies for at least three days without having to worry about food, local residents claimed on Thursday.”

Yahoo News

“From the vantage point of three Black Cat snipers watching the building, I could see Nariman House’s shattered windows. The couple who own the building are Jewish, giving rise to rumors throughout the day that “Israelis” were somehow involved in the attacks. The other people in the building, including an infant wearing a pink bonnet and green blanket, were held as hostages but released early Thursday.

The last person to leave, a young woman, told authorities that the only remaining hostages were the couple, who had made no sound or movement since the night before. By 5 p.m. they were presumed to be dead, and the Black Cat commandos moved in half an hour later, unleashing a volley of gunshots into the building. By 9:30 p.m. local time, the firing was still going on, and it was not clear whether the four to five suspects inside had been killed or captured. “

India’s elite commando squad would surely have a very good idea about the number of people they were dealing with especially after speaking with the young woman and the nanny.

Mid-Day News

"One of the militants called up a television news channel and voiced his demands today, but, interestingly, when he was asked where are they all holed him, he said at the Israeli owned Nariman House and they are six of them here”, one of the investigating cops said. Since morning, there has been exchange of gun fire has been going on and the militants seem well equipped to counter the cops fire. To top it, they have food and shelter. One wonders if they have the support of the residents, a local Ramrao Shanker said."

Reports at the end of the siege

New York Times

“Jewish Center Is Stormed, and 6 Hostages Die”

“Israeli officials and Lubavitch elders confirmed later that six hostages were found dead inside. They were Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, 29, of Brooklyn, and his Israeli wife, Rivka, 28, the Lubavitch emissaries in Mumbai who ran Nariman House; another rabbi from Brooklyn who was living in Israel, Leibish Teitelbaum; Bentzion Chroman, an Israeli with dual American citizenship; an unidentified Israeli woman; and another unidentified woman, according to Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, a Lubavitch spokesman in Brooklyn , and The Associated Press”.

Two unidentified “hostages” were women. But here is a strange co-incidence.

A number of reports and eyewitnesses claim that at least one of the attackers was a woman.

INDIA TIMES

Mystery woman had accompanied terrorists at Cama”

Quote – “”A man and a burqa clad woman entered from the gate opposite our quarters. The man started firing towards the hospital immediately after entering. Moments before, the woman, in a salwar kameez underneath her burqa, had even tried to enter the hospital by climbing a water pipe. As the man continued firing, the woman, who wasn’t armed, knocked on one of the houses”

also

“The shopkeeper’s friend said, “He told me that when he saw Azam’s picture in Mumbai Mirror on Thursday, he realised it was the same youth who had visited his shop with a woman, who was also young. He mentioned they had been like any other youths.”

“Hostages killed by ‘terrorists’ or by security forces in shoot-out?

The Indian security forces thought that the remaining people in the Chabad house with the possible exception of the Rabbi and his wife were terrorists, and they were in a shoot-out with all these people. Yet reports persist that the ‘terrorists’ killed the ‘hostages’, before they were themselves killed. Some say the hostages were killed the day before. Reports also insist that the security forces killed only two terrorists at Chabad House.

However more recent reports say that the Indian security forces may have killed some of the hostages:

Times Online

“At least five terrorist gunmen might have escaped the carnage in Mumbai and could strike again, it emerged yesterday as a video surfaced showing the capture of the gang’s sole known surviving member.”

Were the missing five the same persons who were killed at Chabad ?

Conculsion

Time may eventually tell what really happen at the Chabad House, Mumbai. Indian security service officers may come forward with further information. More information may dispel rumors and speculation that the Israelis at Chabad house were part of the terrorist operation and that the non-white terrorists, all of whom were killed, with the exception of the poster-boy, Ajmal, were the usual patsies.


It will dispel rumors that the four or five ‘hostages’ killed in the center were actually part of the terrorist group and were killed by security forces in the shootout.

The only person who may be able to give an impartial report of what went on at Nariman House would be the Indian nanny, Sandra Samuel. Indian Intelligence would be looking forward to interviewing her when all the confusion ends and when she recovers from the ordeal. Lets hope that the trauma does not lead her to commit suicide or anything like that.

India could be dragged into a game on the grand chessboard, and possibly into war with Pakistan and then China, and maybe Russia. In the end there will be only one winner, the superpower which is on the verge of economic collapse, and which can avert complete disaster only by destroying its main competitors, or getting them to destroy themselves.