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Alternative theories to the Mumbai attack

I think it we created a base for something our leaders fail over and over again. It should evolve... There should be less restrictions but open dialogue.

Just remember... I doubt that 165 milion people Pakistanis are intrested in war with India. But they will not run for it either. War will not bring anything more then death and destruction. That is Mumbai multiplied by ...
 
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India has more than enough evidence of the involvement of Pakistan based terror groups, its to be seen if this evidence is "enough" for them to acknowledge that they share the blame for what happened in the last 3 days.

Their reaction will prove whether they are truly serious about jointly tackling terrorism.

Unfortunately, I am extremely pessimistic about this.

Any evidence provided will not suffice, for Petes sake Omar Syed Shake and Mazood Azhar, both conviceted in India roamed freely in Pakistan. If those are not terrosits and if they can roam freely I don't have any doubts that whatever cooperation they show will be nothing short of horse and Pony show..
 
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First they say that CTS killer is a Bangladeshi now they are saying the head of the terror operation is from Bangladesh. The latest info from the Mumbai Mirror says that they are all Pakistanis. Guys please make up your minds!

'They' meaning whom? The media, that was speculation as that guy looked like a Bdeshi, even i thought so.

But that guy is alive and speaking to agencies now.

As way back as in '06 IB ahd reported that PN was training Let cadres in naval warfare and that the entire course lasetd for almost an year, this very year UP police arrested a Pak based operative who said he did surveilance of Oberio hotel in Mumbai and then in Oct 18 Coast Guard warned of an eminent attack by Sea. So there very enough indications but as usual we failed to prevent.

This attack was done by thos elements who are anti Israel, anti US as India hs become too cosy with these 2 countries off late.

I dont think so GOp officially would be behind these attacks, they have realised the folly in breeding these terror organisation.
 
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Indian allegations alarm Pakistan

By David Loyn

BBC News, Delhi

PM Singh came close to threatening retaliation against Pakistan

In India the opposition BJP have used the opportunity of the Mumbai violence to put pressure on the government.

Front page newspaper adverts appeared on Friday even while shooting was still going on, saying the incident shows that the Congress government is 'unwilling and incapable' of dealing with terrorism.

With the country in the middle of crucial state elections which could determine the timing of the next general election, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is facing intense scrutiny.

Following the attacks, he has been seen visiting the injured in hospital, alongside Congress party president Sonia Gandhi.

He has already promised to strengthen anti-terrorist laws, and in a TV address came close to threatening retaliation against Pakistan if their involvement in the attacks can be proved.

"We will take up strongly with our neighbours that the use of their territory for launching attacks on us will not be tolerated, and that there would be a cost if suitable measures are not taken by them," Mr Singh said.

Recent overtures

The Indian Navy has seized two Pakistani merchant ships and is investigating the possibility that they dropped off the militants who then came ashore in fast boats.


Pakistani FM Qureshi vowed to cooperate with the Indian investigation

They are linking this with the discovery of a trawler, found abandoned off the Indian coastline on Thursday with its captain dead.

Pakistan's denials of involvement have been clear and unambiguous.

The Pakistani ambassador to the US, Hussein Haqqani told the BBC that his country had suffered from terrorism just as much as India had, and offered every assistance in bringing the attackers to justice.

Analysts in Pakistan have been pointing instead to the possibility that these militants are home-grown Indian extremists, operating without external support.

The incident comes just as the first democratic government in Pakistan since the coup in 1999 has made overtures for better relations with India.

For the first time, President Asif Ali Zardari made the quite unexpected unilateral offer to make no first use of nuclear weapons in any conflict.

On Tuesday, home affairs ministers from the two countries met in Islamabad, and Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mahmoud Qureshi is by chance currently visiting India.

Proxy attacks

Such contacts are opposed by significant parts of the Pakistani army and particularly its intelligence service, the ISI, who have in the past inspired terrorist attacks in India to stop just such an improvement in relations between the two countries.


Indian papers said the government had failed to protect its citizens

Feeling encircled - with India to their east allied with Afghanistan to their west - analysts believe they have taken the option of encouraging attacks by proxies, Islamists inspired to wage unconventional war.

An armed assault by militants on the Indian parliament in 2001 led to a significant worsening in relations that escalated into troops on both sides being sent to confront each other across their shared border.

A further possibility though is that this attack was carried out from Pakistan, but beyond the control either of Pakistan's democratic government or its military establishment.

The war in Afghanistan has led to a further radicalisation of politics in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province, where a "Pakistani Taleban" have emerged.

Allied with foreign fighters from al-Qaeda, they have both the financial power and political will to carry out attacks of the sort seen in Mumbai.
 
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'They' meaning whom? The media, that was speculation as that guy looked like a Bdeshi, even i thought so.

I dont think so GOp officially would be behind these attacks, they have realised the folly in breeding these terror organisation.

What does a Bangladeshi look like? A very puzzling assessment from your media.

If Pakistan is not behind this or Bangladesh then who is? It might be the Indian Mujahideen that we have been hearing about. AQ is a strong candidate and we also hear about MOSSAD and CIA. The Indians really have their work cut out for them.
 
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World View

Delhi’s Three Fatal Flaws

New Delhi suffers from bad PR and weak institutions. But just expressing more regret is not going to cut it.

By Sumit Ganguly | NEWSWEEK
Published Nov 29, 2008

Last week's tragedy in Mumbai may have finally focused world attention on India's terror problem, but the crisis is nothing new. Yet despite the enormous death toll—since 2004, nearly 4,000 people have been killed in India by terrorist violence—and the huge economic and political costs of all the recent attacks, India's government has so far displayed a remarkable sang-froid on the issue. Apart from expressing its sympathy for the victims and promising to prosecute those responsible, it has failed to forge a coherent strategy to curb the menace.

New Delhi's ineptitude has been evident in three key areas. First, Indian authorities have failed to convince the world that their country is a major victim of terror—despite statistics showing that it ranks second only to Iraq in terms of casualties. Second, they haven't made the institutional and organizational changes necessary or expended enough resources to tackle the problem on a war footing. And finally, India's government has (at least until recently) remained in denial about the fact that the terror problem has shifted, become at least partially homegrown.

Start with India's most glaring failure: its singular inability to convince the international community that it suffers from a serious terror problem. Not all the attacks over the years have been foreign-linked. But many, especially in Punjab and in Kashmir, have—and the culprit has been Pakistan. Yet New Delhi has never made an adequate case proving Islamabad's involvement to outsiders, relying instead on crude rhetoric that's convinced no one. Even now, in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, Indian leaders haven't shed much light on the copious circumstantial evidence tying the marauders to India's great nemesis. As a result, Pakistan's major supporters, especially the United States (and, to a lesser extent, the United Kingdom), have never brought sufficient pressure to bear on Islamabad to cut off its backing of armed radicals in India.

New Delhi's PR failure is tied to its institutional one. The country's two main intelligence agencies, the external-oriented Research and Analysis Wing and the domestic-focused Intelligence Bureau (IB), have long been at odds. As a result, critical information on various terrorist groups has not been shared in a routine, seamless and timely fashion. Worse still, the IB has been chronically short of operatives for years, thanks to its failure to recruit aggressively or offer suitable professional incentives to staff. It has thus been hamstrung in trying to carry out its duties. In the aftermath of a series of bomb blasts in New Delhi in September, the government did discuss creating a new national agency devoted to tackling terrorism. But little effort was made to realize this goal, thanks to bureaucratic sluggishness and the government's preoccupation with other matters.

One consequence of these failures is that Indian policymakers have been forced to work in the dark, deprived of timely threat warnings and other intelligence. Similarly, India's police forces have again and again been caught flat-footed by attacks, since they were not suitably alerted in advance. Even when crises do hit, response time has remained terribly slow. During the Mumbai attacks, for example, it took India's elite National Security Guards a full nine hours to make it to the city.

The last problem is that India has been extremely reluctant to come to terms with the fact that at least some of its terror problem is now homegrown. New Delhi has long trumpeted the claim that the country's approximately 140 million Muslims are immune to the call of jihad. There are two reasons for this insistence. At one level, India's policymakers haven't wanted to accept that, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, Indian Muslims face substantial discrimination in many facets of everyday life. To cite but one example, Muslims constitute about 13 percent of the population but only about 3 percent of the elite Indian administrative service. Unsurprisingly, their second-class treatment has led some Muslims to lose faith in India's democratic institutions and to violently turn against the state. Yet India's current leaders have been slow to recognize this fact as well—or at least to acknowledge it out loud, for fear of alienating critical Muslim voters.

All this needs to change. In scale, brazenness and viciousness, the Mumbai attacks represented something new for India. As the fires cool, government expressions of sympathy for the victims and promises to prosecute those involved aren't going to cut it. Indian authorities need to move with dispatch on multiple fronts: improving intelligence collection, bolstering metropolitan policing and fashioning new policies designed to address the genuine grievances of the Muslim community. Failure will only invite more attacks from those who wish to tear the country apart.

Ganguly is the director of research at the Center on American and Global Security at Indiana University in Bloomington and an adjunct senior fellow at the Pacific Council on International Policy in Los Angeles.
 
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Fatman sir, there is a tremendous anger among middle and lower-middle class Indians.

The hatred for politicians is so intense that when politicians went to congratulate the security forces they were abused rather than admired.

Pundits are speculating that those politicians who were the first to praise the sacrifice of the commandos on live TV, actually lost popularity rather than gained it.

This is why the BJP is so reluctant to attack the Congress for their failure. They realize that any loud protests by them will be interpreted as playing "dirty politics".

People don't want to see politicians arguing and shuffling the blame, they want to see some action being taken to ensure that this does not happen again.
 
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Fatman sir, there is a tremendous anger among middle and lower-middle class Indians.

The hatred for politicians is so intense that when politicians went to congratulate the security forces they were abused rather than admired.

Pundits are speculating that those politicians who were the first to praise the sacrifice of the commandos on live TV, actually lost popularity rather than gained it.

This is why the BJP is so reluctant to attack the Congress for their failure. They realize that any loud protests by them will be interpreted as playing "dirty politics".

People don't want to see politicians arguing and shuffling the blame, they want to see some action being taken to ensure that this does not happen again.

I couldnt agree with you more. but what do we mean by "some action" - WAR with Pakistan!!!?
 
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Mumbai: The Perils of Blaming Pakistan

By Aryn Baker
Sunday, Nov. 30, 2008

Indian accusations of a Pakistani hand in last week's Mumbai massacre couldn't have come at a worse time for the government in Islamabad: As a Taliban insurgency continues to simmer in the tribal areas along the Afghan border, clashes on Sunday between rival political groups in the southern metropolis of Karachi killed 13 people and wounded 70. The country is on the verge of economic collapse, its desperate pleas for financial assistance from China and Saudi Arabia last month having been rebuffed, forcing Pakistan to accept loans from the International Monetary Fund — but those loans come with stern conditions limiting government spending, the implementation of which will risk inflaming further unrest. A suspected U.S. predator drone attack in the tribal areas on Saturday — one of dozens in recent months — has further alienated a population already suspicious of U.S. interference. Hardly surprising, then, that Pakistani leaders have reacted with alarm to politicians and the media in India pointing a finger at Pakistan-based terror groups over the Mumbai attack. Some foreign investigators have made similar claims, although not in any official capacity.

Most Pakistanis reacted with horror to news of the Mumbai killing spree starting Wednesday, having lived through equally devastating attacks on their own soil. But that initial sympathy quickly gave way to hostility as the focus of blame landed on Pakistan — a knee-jerk first reaction, rather than one based on any solid evidence. "It is a tragic incident, and we also felt bad about it as Pakistan is going through the same problem," says Abdur Rashid, a 67-year-old retired government servant in Rawalpindi, near Islamabad. "But it was really unfortunate to see that even before the operation [to clear out the attackers] was finished, the Indian government stated that Pakistan is involved. It sounds that the entire incident was concocted to punish Pakistan." See images of Mumbai after the siege

On Sunday, Indian media began reporting that the only attacker captured alive, a Versace-T-shirted 21-year-old by the name of Ajmal Amir Kamal, was Pakistani, and that he had identified all his fellow militants as being trained by the banned Pakistan-based militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba. Pakistanis are suspicious of these claims. "There is simply not enough evidence at this point to blame Pakistan," says Najam Sethi, editor of the English political weekly, the Friday Times. "No statement made under duress can be counted as 100% fact, and you can imagine the conditions under which this confession was made."

However, Sethi adds, "the Pakistan connection certainly can't be ruled out. These attackers were not hijackers negotiating with hostages. They knew they were on a suicide mission, and you can certainly find a lot of suicide bombers in the tribal areas." At the same time, the attackers clearly had a local connection, he argues, because out-of-towners could have had the intimate knowledge of the layout of Mumbai and of the targets to have caused so much carnage.

Amir Rana, an expert on Pakistani terrorist groups with the Pakistan Institute of Peace Studies, says he has heard some troubling reports, but says that no accusations should be leveled before a thorough investigation is completed. He cites several recent terrorist attacks in India that were initially blamed on Pakistan, only to have investigations later reveal that the perpetrators were aggrieved Indian Muslims, and in at least one case, Hindu extremists. Early accusations such as these, he worries, may only impede the close cooperation between the two countries necessary to resolve the issue.

"What we may actually be seeing here is an incident of transnational terrorism," he says. "The ideology is shared across borders, from Pakistan to India to Bangladesh." Terrorists these days are just as likely to meet in Dubai to discuss logistics, or in Katmandu to plan strategies. Training can take place not only in the ungoverned tribal areas of Pakistan, but also in Bangladesh, which also faces a mounting challenge from Islamic extremism. Weapons, distributed by a network of arms dealers that supply Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers, Indian separatists groups and even Nepal's Maoists, are in easy reach. Neither the weapons, nor the tactics, of the Mumbai attackers point to any one country, says Rana. "For these kinds of attacks there is no need for training camps. There were no heavy weapons or guerilla tactics. The kind of training they needed could have been done in a single room."

Both Rana and Sethi agree that the Indian accusations are more likely to be driven less by evidence than by political imperatives. India is to hold elections in the coming months, and the ruling Congress party has taken a beating over the attacks — rival parties are saying the government was poorly prepared and had not cracked down hard enough on previous terrorist activities. "Elections are coming," says Rana, "So there are internal pressures to blame someone, and to show that it is not the government's fault. Pakistan is the obvious scapegoat."

The scapegoating of Pakistan may backfire, Sethi fears. Up until now, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari has taken a keen interest in normalizing relations between the two countries, at great risk to his own standing. India and Pakistan are closer now to an enduring peace than at any point in their 61-year history together. "If anything happens, if India moves troops to the border, or threatens an attack, it could destabilize his government and derail everything," says Sethi.

Still, he hopes that calmer heads prevail, and that the Indian government response is little more than posturing, unlike in 2001 when a December attack on the Indian parliament was attributed to Pakistan, and the two nuclear-armed countries nearly went to war. India's Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has threatened to send Indian troops to the border with Pakistan if solid evidence emerges of Pakistani involvement. In that case, Pakistan would be required to move its own troops from the border with Afghanistan, where they are making headway in the fight against al-Qaeda and Taliban-linked militants, to the Indian frontier. "That would play into the hands of these terrorists," says Sethi. "If Pakistan and India start fighting, then the whole focus on the war on terror would be lost, and those militant groups would succeed. That would be tragic."

Asim Javeid, a 23-year-old student in Rawalpindi, agrees. "The Mumbai attack shows that terrorism is a common threat to both India and Pakistan. Unless both countries join hands and take measures to combat terrorism, we will not be able to defeat this curse."

— With reporting by Ershad Mahmud/Rawalpindi
 
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I couldnt agree with you more. but what do we mean by "some action" - WAR with Pakistan!!!?


I dont think it would be war though tensions and distrust would increase.

It could be anything from more international pressure on Pakistan to strengthening of RAW etc to take of terrorists on Pakistani soil.
 
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First they say that CTS killer is a Bangladeshi now they are saying the head of the terror operation is from Bangladesh. The latest info from the Mumbai Mirror says that they are all Pakistanis. Guys please make up your minds!
This is an extremely dangerous development. After cowing GOP successfully, IND has started to move with game plan 2. Killing multiple birds by one stone seem the agenda of Indian perpetrators of the stage-managed attack in its land. Today, Muslims of BD should realize the value of pre-71s PAK federation and why IND had vigorously pursued the expulsion of W PAK force from its land in 71. Time has come for all Muslims to forget differences, get out the box of narrow nationalistic thoughts to create a unified front to confront the murderous conspiracies of INDO-ZIO-NAZI otherwise one by one of their livelihoods will be decimated, their sisters will be raped and country will be occupied.
 
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Time has come for all Muslims to forget differences, get out the box of narrow nationalistic thoughts to create a unified front to confront the murderous conspiracies of INDO-ZIO-NAZI otherwise one by one of their livelihoods will be decimated, their sisters will be raped and country will be occupied.

Wow... wonderful conspiracy theories. Sky is the limit. Now Nazis are joining Zionists and then joining Hindus to decimate Muslims. Keep on going my friend.
 
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Wow... wonderful conspiracy theories. Sky is the limit. Now Nazis are joining Zionists and then joining Hindus to decimate Muslims. Keep on going my friend.

Apart from billion of hanumans jumping BD-PAK trees, some of those seemed to master deflection art called 'Conspiracy theory'. But unless sensationalized, emotional scream of Islamic Terra -Muslim terra, Islamization weren't rationalized by logic, science; no one needed pay any heed to such rhetoric, especially since conspiracy theory itself was proved to be the biggest conspiracy in many cases and purohit's apprehension was just the tip of the ice burg. :guns:
 
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5 Points That Destroy India’s Latest Fairytale

By FIDA MARVAT

Tuesday, 2 December 2008.

Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations

PESHAWAR, Pakistan—In 1988, Indian Navy and commandos took only 24 hours to storm Mamoon Abdul Quyum's palace in the Maldives when it was taken over by rebels and eliminated the rebels within another 24 hours.

But in Mumbai, it India 60 hours to eliminate ten terrorists equipped only with KKs. The entire drama seems to be well scripted like Bollywood/Hollywood movies. On one side they blame ISI for planning, executing the whole episode and on the other hand they blame ISI for committing silly mistakes and leaving behind incriminating evidence to be picked up by the Indian intelligence so it could find easy links to Karachi/Pakistan.

Some other India lies include:

1. Indians failed to detect movement of the alleged merchant ship from Karachi and then its off loading of passengers at high sea.

2. These 10 daredevils traveled in rubber dinghies up to Bombay shores unnoticed. Was the Indian coastal defense system asleep?

3. The terrorists waded through the marshes of Bombay coastline, reached the road network, hijacked police vehicles, divided themselves in three groups and then headed for their targets in the posh localities of Bombay, and EVERYTHING GOES UNNOTICED.

4. Like precision guided missiles these terrorists reach their targets and take over heavily guarded two 5-star hotels, dodging the security system of the entire city of Bombay and the internal security system of these 5-star hotels and the Jewish center also.

5. They fight it out with Indian commandos for 3 days and all but one is killed. The Indians claim that he is ISI sponsored. If we believe the Indian storyline, it defies logic. How can a professional spy agency like ISI commit the following mistakes:

1. Sailing the terrorist off from Karachi. Why not Dubai, Chittagong or Eden for better deception?

2. Credit cards of Pakistani origin in their pockets. Do the suicide bombers carry the IDs in their pockets?

3. Their Pakistani Punjabi ascent. The first lesson given to intelligence operators is to adapt to local environments. If such an operation was planned by Pakistan and ISI, the operatives would have known that they would have to communicate/ negotiate with the hostages and others and hence would have concealed this giveaway sign.

I leave to the readers to decide if Indian lies are white or black.

I also leave to you to decide whether this is a RAW/Mossad staged drama or that of Lashkar-e-Tayyeba and ISI?

And how much credible are CNN and BBC anyway?
 
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‘Initial probe shows no Pakistan link’

ISLAMABAD: Initial investigations have revealed that Pakistan was not involved in Mumbai terrorist attacks, said Maharashtra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh on Monday, as officials continued to resign in the wake of the attacks. The chief minister of the Indian state told reporters after a provincial cabinet meeting in Mumbai that the terrorists did not take anybody hostage at the hotels they attacked, PTV reported. The chief minister also said he had offered to resign amid widespread public anger over perceived intelligence and security failures. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
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