What's new

Allama Iqbal and current world created by Non Muslims

My-Analogous

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
7,013
Reaction score
2
Country
Pakistan
Location
Saudi Arabia
Allama-Iqbal-Islamic-Urdu-Poetry.jpg


@WebMaster @Horus @Abu Nasar @Akheilos @Hazzy997 @al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Mosamania @MastanKhan @Jungibaaz @Kaan @GreenFalcon @Zarvan @PWFI @chauvunist @Areesh @BDforever @Fahad Khan 2 @JanjaWeed @Devil Soul @Fulcrum15 @ranjeet @Koovie @Jazzbot @Raja.Pakistani @NKVD @nair @levina @Jungibaaz @W.11 @American Pakistani @HRK @Leader @iranigirl2 @Jaanbaz @Ceylal @MOHSENAM @Zizou @500 @Luftwaffe @Armstrong @Sidak @scorpionx @Indischer @Roybot @krash @American Pakistani @Soumitra @Nihonjin1051 @cnleio @Jf Thunder@Imran Khan@Horus@Norwegian@OrionHunter @cb4 @Arsalan@Donatello@Oscar@Hyperion@Bratva@DESERT FIGHTER@Dazzler@ChineseTiger1986 @Tempest II @A.Rafay@Ahmad1996@airmarshal@Akheilos@Armstrong@arushbhai@AstanoshKhan@AZADPAKISTAN2009@balixd@batmannow@Bilal.@chauvunist@Crypto@Dr. Stranglove@Evil Flare@EyanKhan@GIANTsasquatch@graphican@Green Arrow@Guleen Ahmed@HRK@Jazzbot@Junaid B@Jzaib@Khalidr@khawaja07@Leader@Luftwaffe@Marshmallow@mr42O@Muhammad Omar@nomi007@Pak123@Pakistani shaheens@Pakistanisage@Peaceful Civilian@pkuser2k12@Pukhtoon@PWFI@raazh@Rafael@Rashid Mahmood@RescueRanger@Saifkhan12@Sedqal@SHAMK9@Spy Master@Stealth@Strike X@SUPARCO@sur@syedali73@Tameem@TankMan@Tayyab1796@Zarvan@waleed3601@AdeelFaheem@Rajput_Pakistani@Men in Green@orakzai4u@IceCold@LoveIcon@razahassan1997@Cheetah786@Dil Pakistan@Donatello@asq@junaid hamza@SBD-3@cb4@AsianUnion@Aether@xyxmt@Proudpakistaniguy@WishLivePak@Waffen SS@FaujHistorian@Fracker@Ranches@ghoul@Jf Thunder@GreenFalcon@genmirajborgza786@orangzaib@Pakistani Exile@KURUMAYA@Irfan Baloch@ali_raza@Syed.Ali.Haider@dexter@Patriots@muslim_pakistani@W.11@Meengla@zaid butt@ajpirzada@Shoaib Rathore@OrionHunter@CHARGER@Major Sam@yesboss@TheFlyingPretzel@TheNoob@Bratva@ghazaliy2k@Viny@StormShadow@suresh1773@SOHEIL@venu309@danish_vij@Force-India@faisal6309@SpArK@S.U.R.B.@vsdave2302@jarves@WAJsal@pursuit of happiness@Winchester@janon@pak-marine@AgNoStiC MuSliM@420canada@sathya@HughSlaman@ChineseTiger1986 @Chinese-Dragon @Chinese Bamboo @cirr @rott@rockstar08 @atanz
 
. . . . . .
Allama Iqbal was an obscurantist and muddle headed at best

The late Sibte-Hasan compared Iqbal’s fate to that of Hegel. The ambiguities and contradictions in Hegel’s ideas made him an inspiration both for the German rightwing (from monarchists to Fascists) and the European far-left (Marxists).
Equipped with a deep study and strong command of philosophy, Iqbal wrote and spoke when the colonial yoke was still upon us but the Indian people were experiencing a political and social reawakening. He wrote with the confidence of a man who believed in the future of his people and his religion. But what kind of future and what kind (interpretation) of religion?
Imagine Fichte, Nietzsche, Bergson, Whitehead, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Mussolini, Lenin, Ahmed Sarhindi, Ibn Arabi, Ghazali, Ashari and Rumi thrown together (but not fused into one) in the mind of a highly romantic (in the very strong sense of being anti-reason) and poetic genius with a religious and revivalist zeal and scholastic penchant, and what do you get? A formidable mountain of metaphysical confusion, on top of which sit the most reactionary attitude and ideas side by side with the most progressive insights.
What Iqbal offers us, then, is a bottomless bag of intellectual contradictions. From it you can try and take out pluralism and freedom of thought if you wish or you can search the bag for, and find without much effort, the kind of tribal religion upheld by Mullah Omar. With Sibte-Hasan we can see Iqbal as the Hegel of Islam who inspires us in our quest for freedom, democracy and social justice, if only we could “remove the husk from the kernel”, or with Mubarak Ali and Ali Abbas Jalalpuri we can see him as an anti-reason revivalist whose rationalism consisted in a reactionary scholasticism that sought to close our minds to scientific thinking and true philosophy.
Be that is it may, I will only briefly describe my impression of one of the aspects of Iqbal’s fifth lecture – The Spirit of Muslim Culture – in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam. It is not possible here to deal fully with the whole structure and the entire content of the lecture, highly interesting as it is in the beginning where Iqbal makes a startling effort to carve out a philosophically appealing definition of prophethood, revelation and mystical experience to make the idea of “prophetic consciousness” relevant for the modern times.
He becomes less impressive as he goes on to deduce from the Quran a theoretical approach to the scientific study of nature and rudiments of a philosophy of history, quoting some straight and simple Quranic verses out of context to justify a very tenuous line of argument.
And then comes what I feel to be the most problematic aspect of the lecture. Quite arbitrarily building a notion of the Quran’s emphasis on the “concrete” against the alleged “abstraction” of the classical Greek heritage, he makes the fantastic claim that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in the Muslim world was “due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it.” He actually credits the Asharite “intellectual revolt against Greek philosophy” in the Muslim world with leading to the foundation of modern science and which the West, he claims, inherited from Islam. The heroes of this ‘scientific revolution’ were the Asharites, Imam Taymiyya, Al-Ghazali to some extent, and the likes; and it is clearly implied that the those vanquished by the “true spirit of Islam” are the Mutazilites, and philosophers and scientists like Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina.
This reactionary fiction – even if it is created by Iqbal – is a travesty of the idea of any serious and objective study of Muslim history. In his distortion of history Iqbal remains blissfully untroubled by the fact that most Muslim scientists were Mutazalite rationalists and philosophers – the school of thought whose suppression, excommunication, torture and extermination by the anti-enlightenment and anti-science Asharites and the monarchs who patronised them Iqbal has ‘euphemistically’ called “Muslim intellectual revolt against Greek philosophy.”
Iqbal does not explain why – if modern science originated in the lap of al-Ashari’s and al-Ghazali’s understanding of Islam – the scientific revolution occurred in Europe where the names of Ibn Rushd, Ibn Sina, al-Kandi, and al-Razi were venerated and their works made part of university syllabi, and not in the Arab world where they were demonised, hounded, tortured and exiled, and where their books and libraries were burnt. How many scientists did the followers of al-Ashari, al-Ghazali and Taymiyya produce? Al-Ashari triumphantly and famously denied the existence of cause and effect and thus attacked the very foundation of both scientific speculation and experiment in the Muslim world.
In this atmosphere of fear and persecution, Muslim science – or whatever was left of it – confined itself to only observation and experiments and refrained from drawing theoretical conclusions that could lead to scientific breakthroughs and pave the way for new experiments and observations. This death of free thought and enquiry Iqbal romanticises and celebrates as “Islamic science” on the basis of his “Quranic” understanding of a “dynamic universe”!
Why does Iqbal perform this intellectual sleight of hand? There can hardly be an answer other than that his rationalism, like the rationalism of any scholastic theologian, hides an anti-reason, anti-science and anti-materialist (in the philosophical sense of the word) epistemology. That is why he remains oblivious of the very materialist and scientific origin of Greek philosophy which was owned and nurtured by Muslim philosophers and scientists before the Asharite reaction struck them and before it was rediscovered and built on by the West. Iqbal does not want to reconcile Islam and science, he wants to Islamise science. And the first step in that direction has to be a rejection of the classical Greek philosophical heritage as a formative influence on Muslim scientists, followed by other and much more serious distortions of historical facts.
What, then, do we expect from Iqbal in terms of pluralism in thought and beliefs? I do not know, for there is a lot in the bottomless bag of Iqbalian contradictions that can be used to prove him the most open-minded genius of his and our times who was in love with unity in diversity. I have confined myself only to an aspect of his “Reconstruction” and tried to follow Sibte-Hasan’s advice – of removing the husk from the kernel.

source :
Iqbal: the husk and the kernel
 
.
Allama Iqbal was an obscurantist and muddle headed at best

The late Sibte-Hasan compared Iqbal’s fate to that of Hegel. The ambiguities and contradictions in Hegel’s ideas made him an inspiration both for the German rightwing (from monarchists to Fascists) and the European far-left (Marxists).
Equipped with a deep study and strong command of philosophy, Iqbal wrote and spoke when the colonial yoke was still upon us but the Indian people were experiencing a political and social reawakening. He wrote with the confidence of a man who believed in the future of his people and his religion. But what kind of future and what kind (interpretation) of religion?
Imagine Fichte, Nietzsche, Bergson, Whitehead, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Mussolini, Lenin, Ahmed Sarhindi, Ibn Arabi, Ghazali, Ashari and Rumi thrown together (but not fused into one) in the mind of a highly romantic (in the very strong sense of being anti-reason) and poetic genius with a religious and revivalist zeal and scholastic penchant, and what do you get? A formidable mountain of metaphysical confusion, on top of which sit the most reactionary attitude and ideas side by side with the most progressive insights.
What Iqbal offers us, then, is a bottomless bag of intellectual contradictions. From it you can try and take out pluralism and freedom of thought if you wish or you can search the bag for, and find without much effort, the kind of tribal religion upheld by Mullah Omar. With Sibte-Hasan we can see Iqbal as the Hegel of Islam who inspires us in our quest for freedom, democracy and social justice, if only we could “remove the husk from the kernel”, or with Mubarak Ali and Ali Abbas Jalalpuri we can see him as an anti-reason revivalist whose rationalism consisted in a reactionary scholasticism that sought to close our minds to scientific thinking and true philosophy.
Be that is it may, I will only briefly describe my impression of one of the aspects of Iqbal’s fifth lecture – The Spirit of Muslim Culture – in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam. It is not possible here to deal fully with the whole structure and the entire content of the lecture, highly interesting as it is in the beginning where Iqbal makes a startling effort to carve out a philosophically appealing definition of prophethood, revelation and mystical experience to make the idea of “prophetic consciousness” relevant for the modern times.
He becomes less impressive as he goes on to deduce from the Quran a theoretical approach to the scientific study of nature and rudiments of a philosophy of history, quoting some straight and simple Quranic verses out of context to justify a very tenuous line of argument.
And then comes what I feel to be the most problematic aspect of the lecture. Quite arbitrarily building a notion of the Quran’s emphasis on the “concrete” against the alleged “abstraction” of the classical Greek heritage, he makes the fantastic claim that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in the Muslim world was “due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it.” He actually credits the Asharite “intellectual revolt against Greek philosophy” in the Muslim world with leading to the foundation of modern science and which the West, he claims, inherited from Islam. The heroes of this ‘scientific revolution’ were the Asharites, Imam Taymiyya, Al-Ghazali to some extent, and the likes; and it is clearly implied that the those vanquished by the “true spirit of Islam” are the Mutazilites, and philosophers and scientists like Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina.
This reactionary fiction – even if it is created by Iqbal – is a travesty of the idea of any serious and objective study of Muslim history. In his distortion of history Iqbal remains blissfully untroubled by the fact that most Muslim scientists were Mutazalite rationalists and philosophers – the school of thought whose suppression, excommunication, torture and extermination by the anti-enlightenment and anti-science Asharites and the monarchs who patronised them Iqbal has ‘euphemistically’ called “Muslim intellectual revolt against Greek philosophy.”
Iqbal does not explain why – if modern science originated in the lap of al-Ashari’s and al-Ghazali’s understanding of Islam – the scientific revolution occurred in Europe where the names of Ibn Rushd, Ibn Sina, al-Kandi, and al-Razi were venerated and their works made part of university syllabi, and not in the Arab world where they were demonised, hounded, tortured and exiled, and where their books and libraries were burnt. How many scientists did the followers of al-Ashari, al-Ghazali and Taymiyya produce? Al-Ashari triumphantly and famously denied the existence of cause and effect and thus attacked the very foundation of both scientific speculation and experiment in the Muslim world.
In this atmosphere of fear and persecution, Muslim science – or whatever was left of it – confined itself to only observation and experiments and refrained from drawing theoretical conclusions that could lead to scientific breakthroughs and pave the way for new experiments and observations. This death of free thought and enquiry Iqbal romanticises and celebrates as “Islamic science” on the basis of his “Quranic” understanding of a “dynamic universe”!
Why does Iqbal perform this intellectual sleight of hand? There can hardly be an answer other than that his rationalism, like the rationalism of any scholastic theologian, hides an anti-reason, anti-science and anti-materialist (in the philosophical sense of the word) epistemology. That is why he remains oblivious of the very materialist and scientific origin of Greek philosophy which was owned and nurtured by Muslim philosophers and scientists before the Asharite reaction struck them and before it was rediscovered and built on by the West. Iqbal does not want to reconcile Islam and science, he wants to Islamise science. And the first step in that direction has to be a rejection of the classical Greek philosophical heritage as a formative influence on Muslim scientists, followed by other and much more serious distortions of historical facts.
What, then, do we expect from Iqbal in terms of pluralism in thought and beliefs? I do not know, for there is a lot in the bottomless bag of Iqbalian contradictions that can be used to prove him the most open-minded genius of his and our times who was in love with unity in diversity. I have confined myself only to an aspect of his “Reconstruction” and tried to follow Sibte-Hasan’s advice – of removing the husk from the kernel.

source :
Iqbal: the husk and the kernel

Finally someone's said it!

I feel Iqbal was been overly idealised in Pakistan. His famous 'shaheens' analogy has a clear message of anti-integration, provincialism and opportunism. It's a very self-serving outlook on which to bring up a generation tbh.
 
.
Personally I have never connected with Iqbal , and found him to be be passive , and not someone who could really do something for the people by actions so he decided to sit down and write his thoughts in poetry. Which itself people never read except to entertain themselves in the after hours.

In school his book of poetry sit on the shelves top cover nicely decorated, perhaps too difficult to follow for the generation of student's that are in Pakistani schools who favor a small and to the point message

Qauid-e-Azam (Mohammad Ali Jinah) on other hand appears more like a CAN do attitude you look at him and he always presents a persona who can motivate masses to ACT not passively sit , while Iqbal , on other hand his view was "Ok you are drifting in life , you should be doing such an such - but I will not tell you what to do you find your own path"

However on a national level I find that Iqbal is viewed prominently next to Qauid-e Azam

So I never understood why from a practical political perspective he made an impact , in School the debates started with that same "poetic" start and that same old simplistic view of his childhood. Then followed by the collection of books he wrote but what did he do as a person

He died before Pakistan was formally a state , and his commentary is normally popular up to point where people state that Pakistan was his vision but there is sufficient lack of information on describing how that vision progressed surely the political view was not a work of 1 single person

His poetry I generally find that he lived in a society that was at constant struggle with itself to define it's existence, he always wanted to be an ideal person but always failed and always questioned his self in poetic sense. The shock value of his poetry is interesting perhaps to ask his country men (or residents) to ponder their distance from their faith. However he never said it directly , always hiding behind poetry to convey that he wanted an ideal world which did not exist in his surroundings.

Also there is ample lack in coverage of his relation with the Muslims of his world apart from the Sub continent Muslim and their movement

Perhaps a high quality BIOGRAPHY is due on the man which sheds more light on his personal life and leadership qualities

Can we argue that the poetry he wrote , was something that motivated his "generation" at the time during world war 1 / time period

There is no indication of how he viewed world war 1 he must have lived thru it

Iqbal's approach how it feels to me is if someone hits you on head or denies you rights , you come back home, and write a book about it Poetry, and then go back out and continue with your life

His rebellious nature was more less confined in the books vs active actions in the government.

Can anyone argue , that his poetic books inspired million -20 million youth such that it impacted the Pakistan movement
 
Last edited:
.
@AZADPAKISTAN2009 @PersonasNonGrata @Hypatia

Ok guys remember one thing, Pakistan is created with collective efforts and not only with the effort of Jinnah.
And the feelings of a new nation expressed in words by Iqbal was great motivation for Jinnah and which even made him come back from London to India.



Reported Speech at a public meeting to mourn the death of Allama Iqbal, Calcutta, April 21, 1938
The Star of India, April 22, 1938

Mr. M. A. Jinnah said that the sorrowful news of the death of Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal had plunged the world of Islam in gloom mourning. Sir Iqbal was undoubtedly one of the greatest poets, philosophers and seers of humanity of all times. He took a prominent part in the politics of the country and in the intellectual and cultural reconstruction of the Islamic world. His contribution to the literature and thought of the world will live for ever.

He was a leader, a poet, and a dreamer. And please do tell me in which sense you guys think he's overrated?
 
. .
@AZADPAKISTAN2009 @PersonasNonGrata @Hypatia

Ok guys remember one thing, Pakistan is created with collective efforts and not only with the effort of Jinnah.
And the feelings of a new nation expressed in words by Iqbal was great motivation for Jinnah and which even made him come back from London to India.



Reported Speech at a public meeting to mourn the death of Allama Iqbal, Calcutta, April 21, 1938
The Star of India, April 22, 1938

Mr. M. A. Jinnah said that the sorrowful news of the death of Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal had plunged the world of Islam in gloom mourning. Sir Iqbal was undoubtedly one of the greatest poets, philosophers and seers of humanity of all times. He took a prominent part in the politics of the country and in the intellectual and cultural reconstruction of the Islamic world. His contribution to the literature and thought of the world will live for ever.

He was a leader, a poet, and a dreamer. And please do tell me in which sense you guys think he's overrated?

Even the Germans have understood Iqbal's philosophy, but he has proven himself to be too deep for the run of the mill pseudo-intellectuals..

It is not for the shallow, the weak minded, and the intellectually deprived mind, to understand his depth and greatness.
 
Last edited:
.
We really need high level documentary on these leaders , beyond the high level coverage i.e he went to falan falan school and got educated and then bam he had a dream

We need a real life BIOGRAPHY

The modern day Pakistani needs to understand IQBAL the man , who were given an intellect to see the problems in his people yet the only way he could confront it was , being passive and by writing his thoughts in the books and chapters.

I would certainly love to watch a real Biography , of the man IQBAL and his relation with great leaders of his time , i.e Jinah and other ...

It would be great to learn about the life challenges he faced in the "REAL WORLD" not the fake world we see in the school books which barely touch on his personal life and growth as a man

What actually made him write his thought into the books in poetic form - why did he not engage the masses directly

There is no real definition of him as a MAN , his persona in our books seems very shallow as a guy who was busy all the time writing poetry

If all he did was write poetry , when did he found time to make a living , you know earn his pay check? How did he paid his bills ?

How successful was he as a man ? a family member etc or member of community

What was his life like leading up to the March 23rd big day , the historic accounts with evidence

What events in his life , forced him to adapt his vision for the nation

How did his brothers / sisters or relatives viewed him growing up as a child ? How did they saw the changes in him as he developed into a philosopher ?
 
Last edited:
.
Even the Germans have understood Iqbal's philosophy, but he has proven himself to be deep for the run of the mill pseudo-intellectuals..

It is not for the shallow, the weak minded, and the intellectually deprived mind, to understand his depth and greatness.

And the neighbor country India seeks the guidance from this great person. I don't know why people enjoy criticizing their own assets.
Either the op couldn't understand the depth of his poetry or do not know how he played the role in creation of Pakistan.
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom