Air Force Question Thread

[TAC]

Hi,

The reason for the paf not buying the rafale was not monetory---but rather BAD ANALYSIS---. Around 2003 to 2005--paf had made up their minds that the peace progress with india was in its final stages---and would be signed shortly----so they decided that there was no reason for pakistan to spend such a large sum of money to get an aircraft like the rafale which---as to their assessment would never ever be used---so they went ahead with cheap investment---jf17.

They thought it would be a big waste of money----. Remember---after 9/11 pakistani banks were bursting with money and the govt was comparatively rich in cash---people had gotten new found wealth like never before.

Sorry but all of this is absolute and utter rubish. JF-17 was never pursued instead of Rafale and the banks were never ever in the history of Pakistan ' bursting with money'. Please do not try to pass off things you make up as fact. Only an idiot will believe nonesense like this.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sorry but all of this is absolute and utter rubish. JF-17 was never pursued instead of Rafale and the banks were never ever in the history of Pakistan ' bursting with money'. Please do not try to pass off things you make up as fact. Only an idiot will believe nonesense like this.

Son,

It is not the first time kids call their elders or parents with that name---and it won't be the last either---in my teen years 40 + years ago---I have addressed my parents and elders as such---so these words like RUBBISH and idiot don't mean much---.

 

[Kompromat]

@TAC Would humbly request you to show a "little bit" of respect.

 

[Gentelman]

when PAF is getting Spada??
wt about third squadron of JF-17..are we geeting J-10 Bor not??
I heard about deal of 36 J-10 on some papers and some websites.....
there were some specific requirements by PAF on those birds.....

 

[Chak Bamu]

Son,

It is not the first time kids call their elders or parents with that name---and it won't be the last either---in my teen years 40 + years ago---I have addressed my parents and elders as such---so these words like RUBBISH and idiot don't mean much---.

Well sir, in that case it is Karma catching up with you.

About your oft-aired views: Need to move on sir. PAF strategy makes sense only in backdrop of inflicting unacceptable damage to an aggressor. With the state of economy today, that is just as well. At least I do not foresee any invasion or strike from India if we play our cards right. China has well shown that one could avoid war and grow while bear-hugging your adversary. We could learn from that.

You have often remarked that a superior weapon system could lead to a satisfactory solution of Kashmir issue. I disagree. After Kargil, no weapon system can substitute the strategic damage done by ourselves. Your estimation of the impact of a weapon system perhaps reflects your background. But do understand that the world does not necessarily run its course according to how one wishes to see it happen. Reality is far more complex than what you allow for in your analysis relating to acquisition of a particular weapon system and its purported impact.

We in Pakistan need ten years of growth, diversification of energy sourcing, close to 100% school attendance, lesser degree of ideological disorientation, and a dogged determination to achieving objectives. No weapon package would help us along the path. Some vocal detractors say that we are 'fooling' ourselves with JF17, but its impact on national psyche can not be ignored. In that this program is worth more than the money spent on it.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.

 

[MilSpec]

Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.

PAF can afford much more than what seems, Your army is starving your airforce!

Instead of next 100 Nukes, My slight guess would be 5 sqdns of EFT's or j31's would be a better deterrent

 

[notorious_eagle]

Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.

It is indeed the biggest priority, look at the timeline of JF17 from the past five years and look how far it has evolved. The weaponery on board JF17 makes it a very potent platform, especially for us when our enemy is right next door. PAF looked at the Rafale but was not interested due to the cost factor and also PAF's love for the F16's. From Day 1, the plan was to procure additional F16's and put money in for JF17's development.
@MastanKhan is absolutely correct in his analogy that PAF dropped in the ball in 2003. She sure had the funds but laziness was one of the reasons for the delayed procurement. It was not just PAF, the entire country was under the spell of peace with India. Indian people were being invited to our guest shows and the 2004 cricket series set the motion for the peace process. I remember there were several talk shows where respected individuals from both sides were advocating reunion between both India and Pakistan. Thus, Khan Sahib is right in claiming that PAF dropped the ball and should have been more proactive with their procurements.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

PAF can afford much more than what seems, Your army is starving your airforce!

Instead of next 100 Nukes, My slight guess would be 5 sqdns of EFT's or j31's would be a better deterrent

A joint chiefs of staff committee exists and I trust their calculated decisions

 

[MilSpec]

A joint chiefs of staff committee exists and I trust their calculated decisions

Do remember who were part of these committees, Zia, musharrafs and the likes... trustworthy bunch indeed... !

chairmen Joint chief, Army - 11, Navy - 2, Air Force - 1....

 

[MastanKhan]

Well sir, in that case it is Karma catching up with you.

About your oft-aired views: Need to move on sir. PAF strategy makes sense only in backdrop of inflicting unacceptable damage to an aggressor. With the state of economy today, that is just as well. At least I do not foresee any invasion or strike from India if we play our cards right. China has well shown that one could avoid war and grow while bear-hugging your adversary. We could learn from that.

You have often remarked that a superior weapon system could lead to a satisfactory solution of Kashmir issue. I disagree. After Kargil, no weapon system can substitute the strategic damage done by ourselves. Your estimation of the impact of a weapon system perhaps reflects your background. But do understand that the world does not necessarily run its course according to how one wishes to see it happen. Reality is far more complex than what you allow for in your analysis relating to acquisition of a particular weapon system and its purported impact.

We in Pakistan need ten years of growth, diversification of energy sourcing, close to 100% school attendance, lesser degree of ideological disorientation, and a dogged determination to achieving objectives. No weapon package would help us along the path. Some vocal detractors say that we are 'fooling' ourselves with JF17, but its impact on national psyche can not be ignored. In that this program is worth more than the money spent on it.

Hi,

Indeed----so the story goes like this---after Gov Ameer Mohammad Khan's son murdered him---they wanted to dump his body somewhere---and one of the older men told a little story----.

Sons were tired of their old miserable father---so they decided to kill him. They all decided to go for a picnic on the canal bank. After the picnic kids and women moved away---men stayed at one place----the boys knew it was time---so they picked up their father by the legs and feet and started swinging him to throw in in the canal----the old man cried---'stop stop stop'----don't kill me here----but you can kill me over there---a little further down that spot----. The boys asked why----you would die either way---. The old man replied----' this is the spot where I threw my father in the canal '----.

So----what is the moral of the story----if you want to beat the sh-it out of your old man---got to think of something new and different---hehn-----.

Kargil was the episode that brought india and pakistan to the peace table and almost signing of the deal---. Don't put down kargil as a negative for pakistan---.

Indira Ghandhi was right about pakistani generals----they have no vision---no tactics---no gumption---no future analysis planning---.

We need to have a way to find out if pak military has a wing or a think tank for future analysis---how they think and what they decide----is it just the commanders of the forces or a whole group who decides---.

Looking at the procurement by air force----the systems is extremely poorly managed and the analyists extremely poor thinkers.

See----if pak wanted the F16---then they should have gone for the blk 52 the day after they agreed to join the coalition---. They should have the condition for F16 delivery on a fast track---.

By now----we should have had 150---200 F16 new from u s---and used from other nations that retired them and upgrades as well.

It was not there---PAF was lollygagging all thru this time---. They lied to the nation---they lied to themselves---. This was the LONGEWALLA episode all over again----.

PAF has more traitors than any other force in the country---.

 

[Pfpilot]

Hi,

Indeed----so the story goes like this---after Gov Ameer Mohammad Khan's son murdered him---they wanted to dump his body somewhere---and one of the older men told a little story----.

Sons were tired of their old miserable father---so they decided to kill him. They all decided to go for a picnic on the canal bank. After the picnic kids and women moved away---men stayed at one place----the boys knew it was time---so they picked up their father by the legs and feet and started swinging him to throw in in the canal----the old man cried---'stop stop stop'----don't kill me here----but you can kill me over there---a little further down that spot----. The boys asked why----you would die either way---. The old man replied----' this is the spot where I threw my father in the canal '----.

So----what is the moral of the story----if you want to beat the sh-it out of your old man---got to think of something new and different---hehn-----.

Kargil was the episode that brought india and pakistan to the peace table and almost signing of the deal---. Don't put down kargil as a negative for pakistan---.

Indira Ghandhi was right about pakistani generals----they have no vision---no tactics---no gumption---no future analysis planning---.

We need to have a way to find out if pak military has a wing or a think tank for future analysis---how they think and what they decide----is it just the commanders of the forces or a whole group who decides---.

Looking at the procurement by air force----the systems is extremely poorly managed and the analyists extremely poor thinkers.

See----if pak wanted the F16---then they should have gone for the blk 52 the day after they agreed to join the coalition---. They should have the condition for F16 delivery on a fast track---.

By now----we should have had 150---200 F16 new from u s---and used from other nations that retired them and upgrades as well.

It was not there---PAF was lollygagging all thru this time---. They lied to the nation---they lied to themselves---. This was the LONG-16 EWALLA episode all over again----.

PAF has more traitors than any other force in the country---.

The Egyptian Air Force is an example of the benefits of allying one's self with the Americans. They have a massive f-16 force, albeit one with severely limited capability. But a nation cannot traitorously switch sides and then be expected to be trusted fully; especially when it's hobby was to repeatedly attack one of America's core allies. Two of the four largest operators of f-16s are Muslim nations. Our issue cannot then be as simple as America constantly trying to destroy the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Our failure to procure more f-16s is a byproduct of the the double agent like role Pakistan has played in WOT; a guilty conscious.

At no point after 9/11 has it seemed that the Pakistani government or populace felt the Americans would follow through on their promises. Military deals were slow to form and few in number. Until the Pakistani military could be sure of covering all corners in a potential scenario of all encompassing sanctions post-WOT, it was reluctant to procure anything but the most rudimentary equipment. While the history of US-Pak relations completely justifies the paranoia; it does not explain the self fulfilling prophecy the whole ordeal has turned into. While we never trusted the Americans, we had no qualms in going behind their back and supporting the very entity they were trying to eliminate. Our fear that the Americans would eventually abandon us, resulted in us creating the very situation that turned the worst case scenario into reality. Through out this last decade, it has been Pakistan that has come across as unreliable and untrustworthy.

Today, it is all irrelevant. The damage is done, the Americans have seen past Pakistan's game and would be unlikely to supply anything of importance ever again. But there was a time when the future path of US-Pak relations was in our hands. We hedged our bets and failed miserably in the endeavor. We could have technically made deals for far more US equipment, but it is my opinion that Pakistan never expected the relationship to last. For that I blame our government for letting the past cloud their judgement to the degree that they squandered the present and future. Of course, in an ideal world, we would avoid embroiling ourselves in grand games with the US and quietly toe the line. But the reality is we attempted to enter into a relationship of equals with the US; failed to benefit from it and now find ourselves cursing the Americans for not being more helpful.

We should have done as the Turks, the Saudis, and the Egyptians did. Quietly fall in line with the wishes of the super power and then reap the benefits. Those other nations were not thinking of some noble global Islamic cause. Why were we? Our problem was India, we needed equipment to face the IAF, IA, and IN...much like the Turks armed themselves to dominate the Greeks. One must pick his battles; sacrifice and compromise in one corner in order to benefit where it is needed most. We should have sold out everyone from the Taliban, to the TTP, to any other entity the Americans perceived as the enemy. Had we crushed them, not only would we no longer be fighting a long and protracted war with those same elements. We would have a far more potent force singularly focused on the western border. Once again, I am no fan of our master-servant relationship with the US or China. But in a world where we repeatedly jump into an ocean filled with sharks, we must stop trying to fight a creature that will finish us in one bite. Either play along or don't swim at all.

 

[muse]

Pfpilot:

Please don't present history in such personal terms - The problems between US and Pakistan are not new (see Friends Not Masters ) - and should have quietly just fallen in line? That's just what it did - Please understand that the dominant narrative in both countries runs counter to the aims of the govt , that is to say that it's problematic, politically speaking - that's just reality - And therefore, time to move on, for both the US and Pakistan - if we can craft relations based on economic or commercial relations that are fortified by if not a respect than certainly not disrespect for the civilization heritage that we are from, all the better, but don't hold your breath for that to happen in the near future.

Anyways, let me ask, if US is now an ally of India (and it is), why is it that you are suggesting that we continue to see the Indian as an enemy, does not that not by extension mean we continue to see US as an enemy?? To clarify, I'm not suggesting some love fest with the Indian, but perhaps we may move away from hysterics and towards sobriety - See, we can, if we had to, vaporize the Indian, in the blink on an eye, we would be dead, but so would they -- all this F16 stuff has now outlived it's utility - Tomorrow if the US wants India to throw it's weight around, how will 1000 PAF F16 that US controls (Who How and When), effect the situation?? It seems some argue that just the possession of F16 is somehow meant to induce sobriety in an adversary, whereas in the case of Pakistan, the terms under which Pakistan may operate the system are designed to introduce sobriety not on an adversary but rather the operator, is this not the case? Should we not, now, therefore, use this time to build our domestic industrial defense capability and infrastructure?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Do remember who were part of these committees, Zia, musharrafs and the likes... trustworthy bunch indeed... !

chairmen Joint chief, Army - 11, Navy - 2, Air Force - 1....

Um yeah and decisions are consensus based

Gen Zia never was Chairman of the Comittee. Please know what you are talking about first before peddling misinformation.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

when PAF is getting Spada??
wt about third squadron of JF-17..are we geeting J-10 Bor not??
I heard about deal of 36 J-10 on some papers and some websites.....
there were some specific requirements by PAF on those birds.....

We've had spada for some years now.