Air Force Question Thread

[SQ8]

Hi,

I am sure the Chinese cannot get hands on actually F-16 BLK52 hardware, but they can get the experience and interface results out of the pilots who fly them. So for example, PAF pilots can tell the Chinese at Chengdu or Shenyang that hey, this is how the F-16 Radar works in such and such situation. Can we have the JF-17 or J-10 radar like that or perhaps negate the weaknesses? So i am sure PAF experience can go into designing the Chinese jets.

Also, it is only a matter of time when the Chinese catch up to the electronics of the western fighters.

That is still only stating a requirement.. this may not be analogous to people trying to replicate the KFC secret recipe by trial and error. Since to say the radar works this and this way.. would still require the Chinese to reach a level in signal processing that they can replicate those parameters noticed by PAF pilots.

Thank you for the explanation- as you yourself have made clear Pakistan have very limited control over these systems - As the US already has a record, so to speak, of being a poor or unreliable supplier, why exactly have a segment of the Pakistani officer corp allowed Pakistan's defense to be under the control of the US??

You have said that the US decides WHO, HOW and WHEN - Is it, therefore, unreasonable to conclude that what a particular segment of the officer corp have done is to outsource Pakistan's autonomy of action to a foreign power (WHO, HOW, WHEN)

I completely understand that the segment of the officer corp which is in the good books of the US should find such a conclusion embarrassing, however, don't you think that instead of justifying the outsourcing of Pakistan's defense to a hostile foreign power that we should be rectifying this mistake??


The US is a hostile foreign power, not just towards Pakistan but towards Muslims in general, but even if this assertion is controversial to the segment of the officer corp favorable to the US, clearly, the public perception of the US and the officer corps cozy relationship with it, is having a negative effect on both the officer corp and the relationship with the US, will that segment of the officer corp that is cozy with the US, not realize that it cannot be out of step with the public?? Or will it risk it's very existence for the sake of being cozy with US and her interests over those of Pakistan and her populace?

Not autonomy of action per-se.. but autonomy of continued operations during wartime.
The PAF can if it wishes simply not comply with the US rules, however that will mean that any further US spares may not be forthcoming until the compliance is verified.
Think of it in terms of an Iphone(although too simple an example).. You may use the Iphone as you wish.. as long as you dont jailbreak it and install illegal software. When and if you do that, the warranty offered by Apple becomes void.

So you may go ahead and use the system in your defense or hand it over to the Chinese. But when and if that happens the support for your F-16s gets cut-off. After that you may take the whole aircraft apart and try to replicate it but there will be no more US hardware heading your way.

If there is to be actual serious concern about sovereignty then it should be about the surveillance system at KPT and Port Qasim that was operational during Musharraf's time(current status unknown)..
every container that came into Pakistan was scanned in real time by people sitting in the US..

 

[muse]

Think of it in terms of an Iphone
So you may go ahead and use the system in your defense or hand it over to the Chinese. But when and if that happens the support for your F-16s gets cut-off. After that you may take the whole aircraft apart and try to replicate it but there will be no more US hardware heading your way.
.

Which why I never purchase any Apple products - because the purchase is really a lease of a sort, the equipment is never yours.

Now, I don't mean to test your patience, but do you guys actually understand that what you are doing is putting your existence (unreconstructed) at risk? You do realize don't you, that you will be "reconstructed"? And no unkil Sam to the rescue.

Instead of spending any more time and money on this system, PAF should be looking to sell this system and look to reliable suppliers who enjoy the confidence of the Pakistani nation. The usual retort of the evil Indian up to no damn good, has now begun to wear thin, after all, who in Pakistan is up to any good that we should be so concerned about the Indian?

 

[SQ8]

Which why I never purchase any Apple products - because the purchase is really a lease of a sort, the equipment is never yours.

Now, I don't mean to test your patience, but do you guys actually understand that what you are doing is putting your existence (unreconstructed) at risk? You do realize don't you, that you will be "reconstructed"? And no unkil Sam to the rescue.

Instead of spending any more time and money on this system, PAF should be looking to sell this system and look to reliable suppliers who enjoy the confidence of the Pakistani nation. The usual retort of the evil Indian up to no damn good, has now begun to wear thin, after all, who in Pakistan is up to any good that we should be so concerned about the Indian?

Who will buy the system?
The F-16s were a trade off(since you were getting more of them at less of a cost that it would have your procuring systems like the Eurofighter or the Rafale)..because at the end, you still know enough about them to come up with some way to keep them going.. whether good or bad, it was a catch-22 situation for many in the PAF command. Had the actual amount of funds that Pakistan received been appropriated .. the PAF may very well have bought the Rafale. But as always happens in Pakistan..Monuments and Fountains were deemed more important.

At this point.. there are NO reliable suppliers of combat aircraft other than China for the PAF. And China has yet to reach that level of reliable technological advancement that the PAF desires.

this is the detail of the sale and how it has been carried out.

Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:

! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477 million of this in FMF(pakistan paid $414 million), Pakistan currently plans to purchase 45 such kits and 8 have been delivered to date); and

Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:

! 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion; all delivered);
! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500
JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for
gravity bombs ($629 million);
! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million);
! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); and

In other words... Pakistan paid approx $1.85 billion for the F-16s of which are 18 new build..and 45 updated versions..bringing the total to some 63 essentially "new" combat aircraft) at $29-30 million dollars per Aircraft.(or $80 million for the new jets and $million for updating the older ones to Block-52 avionics and weapons capability standards)
NOT A BAD DEAL.
In contrast.. a purchase of a comparable number of Rafale's or Eurofighters would require in excess of $6 billion dollars just for the aircraft.

As for the last part.. nero may still continue to play the fiddle as long as Rome burns. That is nero's conscious choice since nero has wilfully chosen to ignore it by preferring to look at its immediate need within basic needs..
Whatever gets nero Roti-Kapra-Makaan.. is all holy and true..
whatever does not has to be blamed on someone else since nero is and cannot be at fault.
Previously the target was India , today it is the US(using India as well).
However, under all circumstances.. the fiddle must be played as it is soothing to the frustrated, nerve whacked and generally delirious nero.

 

[muse]

The F-16s were a trade off(since you were getting more of them at less of a cost that it would have your procuring systems like the Eurofighter or the Rafale)..because at the end, you still know enough about them to come up with some way to keep them going.. whether good or bad, it was a catch-22 situation for many in the PAF command. Had the actual amount of funds that Pakistan received been appropriated .. the PAF may very well have bought the Rafale. But as always happens in Pakistan..Monuments and Fountains were deemed more important.

At this point.. there are NO reliable suppliers of combat aircraft other than China for the PAF. And China has yet to reach that level of reliable technological advancement that the PAF desires.

See, it's not a trade off - it's a sell out - the aircraft belong to us in name only, operational control (WHO, HOW and WHEN) is in the hands of a hostile power - there is no point in sugar coating this deal, it's just an awful terrible deal -- A bad deal is always worse than no deal at all, always!

True to US style we ended up acknowledging that we are up to no good with our real ally, China, and we further agreed that we will distance ourselves from our real ally - this is just the beginning, the US now has you guys hooked, it can reel you in whenever it needs to and in the meantime, the nation sees that you lot are not be trusted with what is supposed to be your core competence, the security and autonomy (strategic and tactical) of Pakistan.

Who will buy it?? First make the decision to be rid of the system and American strings - I realize that is a process, but it can be a life saving and institution saving process - Ishara

 

[SQ8]

See, it's not a trade off - it's a sell out - the aircraft belong to us in name only, operational control (WHO, HOW and WHEN) is in the hands of a hostile power - there is no point in sugar coating this deal, it's just an awful terrible deal -- A bad deal is always worse than no deal at all, always!

True to US style we ended up acknowledging that we are up to no good with our real ally, China, and we further agreed that we will distance ourselves from our real ally - this is just the beginning, the US now has you guys hooked, it can reel you in whenever it needs to and in the meantime, the nation sees that you lot are not be trusted with what is supposed to be your core competence, the security and autonomy (strategic and tactical) of Pakistan.

Who will buy it?? First make the decision to be rid of the system and American strings - I realize that is a process, but it can be a life saving and institution saving process - Ishara

Does not mean that you cannot use it to its maximum capability during a war.
It does mean you will end up without support in a war.
So yes it is a bad deal, but the others werent too good either.
The question is of money and some vested interests..
but as I mentioned.. Nero is busy playing the fiddle.

 

[muse]

Does not mean that you cannot use it to its maximum capability during a war.
It does mean you will end up without support in a war.
So yes it is a bad deal, but the others werent too good either.
The question is of money and some vested interests..
but as I mentioned.. Nero is busy playing the fiddle.

You cannot use it to it's potential in any war because it is controlled by a hostile foreign power - essentially it is a stone, you throw it against the adversary and that's that.

Other deals were no good either - sure, then that means "no deal" - see with this bad deal, you neither have a system you can use as you may want to, you lose the confidence of the nation, you alienate your true ally and you agree to make yourself the hostage of a hostile foreign power -- A bad deal is worse than no deal at all - it's just a universal law - We Pakistanis pride ourselvesevs at being practical but perhaps we should take the advice of the Chinese to heart, as in the JF17, it may not be all ours, but if we have the will, it can be - no strings, no US.

All our available funds should be going into building capability at PAC and not subsidizing US defense industry - see, in the end it does not matter what the US says, you can always be sure that it is hostile - Pakistan are Muslim and nuclear, two things no US can tolerate, all of this "India BS" is just a waste, our enemies are elsewhere.

 

[jahanzeb111]

i m talking about any aggression from india......
paf has no concern with nato or other. i mean v cant engage with everyone in the world, but to defend ourself. and for that what v have should be 100% operational.......

 

[jahanzeb111]

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??

 

[fatman17]

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??

six upgraded and equivalent to blk 40/42.

 

[Taygibay]

@muse

You end with this :

All our available funds should be going into building capability at PAC and not subsidizing US defense industry - see, in the end it does not matter what the US says, you can always be sure that it is hostile - Pakistan are Muslim and nuclear, two things no US can tolerate, all of this "India BS" is just a waste, our enemies are elsewhere.

I detect a clear animosity at the US in there, i.e. "you can always be sure that it is hostile". and what follows. Let me ignore that as unrelated to PAF in particular and say this : What you describe would happen with all vendors; it is the type of control or assistance that you weigh in, to tell the truth. The US is most political and the amount of control they exert is too high for most nations save ... allies or poor ones.* ( As Oscar explained, the man in the high castle and his cronies will on occasion choose such for costs reasons but the simple fact that the US would sell "cheap" is because politics allows it or to get a foot in the door. Ask yourself if there was an interest at the time for Pakistan to better its relations with the US? )
And thus the EF would be less political but also less meaningful as the four nations that make it will probably never speak as one as allies of Pakistan. France selling the Rafale to the Indians shows political involvement over the years turning into a defence relationship. Had Pakistan had the money, getting the Rafale first would most likely have stopped India from acquiring it? Ahhhh, see what I mean? Politic overtones always accompany defence deals.
I hope that you understand that the Russians have a "hidden" agenda too ( if lesser now for economic necessity. )???
And they are unhappy with China for instance for their tech is being copied. And not all that pro-Islam anyway?
As for the Chinese themselves, a Mig remake and a LAVI extrapolation are all fine and nice to share with Pakistan but in the long run, one should remain alert when his homeland is but the doorstep to expansion to a more powerful neighbour.

So two conclusions spring to mind. One, for now, China and JF-17 and J-10 are fine but if you value your country's autonomy, you better inquire about how much it learns from its participation in those....
and two for later is the development of National capacities. In that respect, one would like to see plans, drawings, CAD/CAO images of projects. Funding the first blocks of tomorrow's Pakistani mili air.
As things stand though, the cooperation with China is present for the hardware. Deals like with Turkey for the F-16 upgrade can deliver a little more expertise. Training with your Gulf allies brings tactical nous and keep relations good with the West.

Warning though, do not overestimate your abilities as the Indians do on the production abilities as that slows the process.

So in closing, practical call : are there projects ongoing for national designs of fighters? And in the long run, is the sum of the technology from Muslim states enough to start one and when?

That answers your desires more efficiently than just ranting at the Yanks!
Good day all, Tay.

* And even for those sometimes too high a price!

 

[muse]

Thank for your fine post - I think we are all under no illusions in that we all understand that nations act in self interest and the political movements that shape those interests - Not just you but a couple of other posters have asked why I am suggesting we distance ourselves from a security relationship with the US - so, allow me to briefly offer a rational - To my thinking, due to it's internal compulsions, the US will be involved in more wars, primarily waged upon Muslim populations - this will create even more political turmoil in Pakistan - therefore Pakistan security managers would do well, to consider their internal political imperatives, than silly stuff about 2 squadrons of any kind of aircraft - 2 squadrons will not make a difference in any conflict Pakistan will find herself in.

Yes, I very much agree that Pakistan's problem is economic and only a change in the nature of politics can help it out of the basket case category, however, what i am suggesting is that since there is little hope of political sanity, we should embrace the opportunity offered by the Chinese to actually build a capability to design and manufacture -- I find the Chinese experience instructive, for years variants of j7 sufficed till industry was at a "take off" or "tipping point" so to speak. Right now and for the next 5 to 10 years at least, Pakistan do not need, NEED, US or French fighter jets, especially just 2 squadrons of them (economy will not allow for more -- and US grants will further exacerbate the political problem that US policies create )

Good relations with the West? I want excellent relations with the West and such relations can only be predicated on commerce first, not security first. Pakistanis over estimating themselves? there is little chance of this -- and really it's not about this, its an opportunity to learn and to relearn ambition and confidence that will serve not just the service but serve as vehicle to bring the nation together.

Allow me to also briefly deal with this India bogey man -- This is just not a persuasive bogey man, no Indian is blowing up Pakistanis in Masajid or Bazaars or shooting down PAF personnel like dogs in the streets, no Indian is dividing Pakistanis by sect or involving them in entirely needless schisms and fissures in the very fabric of society - so the indian is welcome to anything he can pay for or get, I just do not see that as a threat, certainly not when compared to the internal fissures that Pakistani security managers have allowed to be created in Pakistan.

 

[Taygibay]

"... I am suggesting we distance ourselves from a security relationship with the US..."

Silly me, I had entirely disregarded that aspect of things. I'm so sorry, from that perspective, you are quite right.
The rest of the post was then not necessary but I am glad to have read it nonetheless.

Please keep me posted on any indigenous design and good evening, Tay

 

[MastanKhan]

@muse

You end with this :


I detect a clear animosity at the US in there, i.e. "you can always be sure that it is hostile". and what follows. Let me ignore that as unrelated to PAF in particular and say this : What you describe would happen with all vendors; it is the type of control or assistance that you weigh in, to tell the truth. The US is most political and the amount of control they exert is too high for most nations save ... allies or poor ones.* ( As Oscar explained, the man in the high castle and his cronies will on occasion choose such for costs reasons but the simple fact that the US would sell "cheap" is because politics allows it or to get a foot in the door. Ask yourself if there was an interest at the time for Pakistan to better its relations with the US? )
And thus the EF would be less political but also less meaningful as the four nations that make it will probably never speak as one as allies of Pakistan. France selling the Rafale to the Indians shows political involvement over the years turning into a defence relationship. Had Pakistan had the money, getting the Rafale first would most likely have stopped India from acquiring it? Ahhhh, see what I mean? Politic overtones always accompany defence deals.
I hope that you understand that the Russians have a "hidden" agenda too ( if lesser now for economic necessity. )???
And they are unhappy with China for instance for their tech is being copied. And not all that pro-Islam anyway?
As for the Chinese themselves, a Mig remake and a LAVI extrapolation are all fine and nice to share with Pakistan but in the long run, one should remain alert when his homeland is but the doorstep to expansion to a more powerful neighbour.

So two conclusions spring to mind. One, for now, China and JF-17 and J-10 are fine but if you value your country's autonomy, you better inquire about how much it learns from its participation in those....
and two for later is the development of National capacities. In that respect, one would like to see plans, drawings, CAD/CAO images of projects. Funding the first blocks of tomorrow's Pakistani mili air.
As things stand though, the cooperation with China is present for the hardware. Deals like with Turkey for the F-16 upgrade can deliver a little more expertise. Training with your Gulf allies brings tactical nous and keep relations good with the West.

Warning though, do not overestimate your abilities as the Indians do on the production abilities as that slows the process.

So in closing, practical call : are there projects ongoing for national designs of fighters? And in the long run, is the sum of the technology from Muslim states enough to start one and when?

That answers your desires more efficiently than just ranting at the Yanks!
Good day all, Tay.

* And even for those sometimes too high a price!

Hi,

The reason for the paf not buying the rafale was not monetory---but rather BAD ANALYSIS---. Around 2003 to 2005--paf had made up their minds that the peace progress with india was in its final stages---and would be signed shortly----so they decided that there was no reason for pakistan to spend such a large sum of money to get an aircraft like the rafale which---as to their assessment would never ever be used---so they went ahead with cheap investment---jf17.

They thought it would be a big waste of money----. Remember---after 9/11 pakistani banks were bursting with money and the govt was comparatively rich in cash---people had gotten new found wealth like never before.

 

[Taygibay]

Peace process with India? Isn't that like the water in a river, a never ending flow?
And now it's going to be J-17 against Rafale which is not correct. I hope the Indians
are fair play and use Tejas on that border. Maybe M2Ks and keep the MKI and Raffys
for China

All kidding aside, your government of then should have remembered the driving motto
of functional armies since Rome : Civis pacem, para bellum.
_If you want Peace, prepare for War.

Thnx for the answer, good day all, Tay.

 

[MastanKhan]

Peace process with India? Isn't that like the water in a river, a never ending flow?
And now it's going to be J-17 against Rafale which is not correct. I hope the Indians
are fair play and use Tejas on that border. Maybe M2Ks and keep the MKI and Raffys
for China

All kidding aside, your government of then should have remembered the driving motto
of functional armies since Rome : Civis pacem, para bellum.
_If you want Peace, prepare for War.

Thnx for the answer, good day all, Tay.

Hi,

Actually someone should have reminded that to the idiots in the air force blue uniforms---.